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M
Marco
Guest
Thanks Johnv and Petrel. It's nice to have support.
I wish my wife made more then I did. I am secure enough to just appriceate the money that comes into our joint account. I dont care whos pay check it comes from. I am also realistic enougth to know that a career in law enforcement will never make make big money. Being in a low paying field of work like law enforcement it is not uncommon at all to have the wife make more money. I know and work with several in this situation and they have not probelm. My manhood is not based on the salary that I make. If yours is then I feel sorry for you if something should ever happen where you could not work.
Amen.
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
After reading all this I am really confused ? Do all you who believe it is ok for a man to stay home and a women to be the bread winner....also believe women can be Pastors and leaders in the church ?
Here is a quote John Macathur said on the subject in one of his sermons. I think the Bible is clear on the fact women should be keepers at home Titus 2 and men should be the providers.
Here is a quote John Macathur said on the subject in one of his sermons. I think the Bible is clear on the fact women should be keepers at home Titus 2 and men should be the providers.
No, the Bible is clear that women are not to pastor.
If a woman makes more money then a man, does this place her in athority above a man?
If a man stays home and a woman works can he not be the leader of his house?
Sometimes the situation works out that a woman needs to work. Either the household needs two incomes or the woman has skills that make it more benificial for her to work or the man is disabled. I find it ideal that the woman stay home with the kids but this is not always possable. She can nurture when she is home and he can be the leader in his house all day while teaching the kids.
What about this hypothetical situation.
A man has the ability to do menial labor say $8.00hr. His wife has a collage degree say $18.00 hr potental. The man wants to teach his kids at home and has patence and what it takes to be a good home school teacher. The mother is not really interested in teaching the kids at home, wants to send them to public school. As the leader of a household thinking about what is best for the kids (not your pride) what desition would you make? Would you or could you force your wife to stay home and teach your kids? Would she do a good job even though her heart is not in it? Can you live on $8.00?
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
I respect your opinion....but I am still having a hard time seeing what the difference is ?
If a man can play the role of the women by being the keepers at home Titus 2 ( sounds very clear to me ) and the man is to be the leader and provider Genesis 1 also clear. Then according to some of you a women should be able to be a Pastor or leader in the church. Justify it all you want its the same.
I understand your points but at the same time I see problems with all of them. Statistics have shown whether any man or woman will admit this or not, that........
1) Men feel UNFULFILLED and UNMASCULINE ( not pride, just a GOD GIVEN motivation to work and provide )If his wife makes more than he does.
2) Women regret having to spend many hours away from home away from their children, they find they become more emotionally detatched and the children become a bother more than a blessing...after comming home from a hard day of work.
3) Men were not made to be the nurturers women were. yes there are always exceptions. But God made men and women different not matter how we try and change the way God made us. We are different and have different roles.
4) Men regret not having male bonding they otherwise would have at work. Not like they can go to the park or a Bible study or visit with the neighbor women without someone thinking they would become emotionally involved with other women ( since there probably are not any other men doing the same ) or being seen as perverts around children. I would never send my child to a MALE child care worker like is shown in the movie " Daddy Daycare ". So they do have more restrictions for fellowship.
5) Not sure that is the example I would want my sons to follow. I would expect my sons to be the providers and leaders....not sure how you do that if you are not examples yourselves.
6) Money should NEVER be a reason to thwart Gods plan for our lives. He will provide as we do what he calls us to do. I do not agree that most of the women working today are doing so because they " HAVE " to. I believe they do it because they " WANT " to. They want more cars, bigger house and more vacations etc.
Those are just a few examples.
If a man can play the role of the women by being the keepers at home Titus 2 ( sounds very clear to me ) and the man is to be the leader and provider Genesis 1 also clear. Then according to some of you a women should be able to be a Pastor or leader in the church. Justify it all you want its the same.
I understand your points but at the same time I see problems with all of them. Statistics have shown whether any man or woman will admit this or not, that........
1) Men feel UNFULFILLED and UNMASCULINE ( not pride, just a GOD GIVEN motivation to work and provide )If his wife makes more than he does.
2) Women regret having to spend many hours away from home away from their children, they find they become more emotionally detatched and the children become a bother more than a blessing...after comming home from a hard day of work.
3) Men were not made to be the nurturers women were. yes there are always exceptions. But God made men and women different not matter how we try and change the way God made us. We are different and have different roles.
4) Men regret not having male bonding they otherwise would have at work. Not like they can go to the park or a Bible study or visit with the neighbor women without someone thinking they would become emotionally involved with other women ( since there probably are not any other men doing the same ) or being seen as perverts around children. I would never send my child to a MALE child care worker like is shown in the movie " Daddy Daycare ". So they do have more restrictions for fellowship.
5) Not sure that is the example I would want my sons to follow. I would expect my sons to be the providers and leaders....not sure how you do that if you are not examples yourselves.
6) Money should NEVER be a reason to thwart Gods plan for our lives. He will provide as we do what he calls us to do. I do not agree that most of the women working today are doing so because they " HAVE " to. I believe they do it because they " WANT " to. They want more cars, bigger house and more vacations etc.
Those are just a few examples.
Not all men feel this way. Like I said I work in law enforcement. It is not hard for a woman or anyone for that matter to make more then me. If this were always the case then you would have no cops to protect you or most all cops would be depressed because most of our wifes make more then us. Is law enforcement not manly because if is inferior in pay? I know alot of guys who would disagree with that.
I agree, but it is the same for men. Dont you regret being away from your kids all day. Maybe both parents should stay home and nobody work then the kids would have the best of both parents all the time. They would be the smartest kids under the viaduct.
"the children become a bother more than a blessing...after comming home from a hard day of work." Thats rediculous, do you feel that way when you get home.
I agree, I said mom staying home is ideal. But we all do the best we can for our familys.
I agree, it is hard finding other male friends during the day. I do have a very good friend that has recently been working night and staying home during the day like me. But I think women are more likely to socelized during the day with there kids. Unfortenatly we almost never get to gether during the day with our kids. Women may have the advantage there.
I want my sons to do what is the best for there familes, even if it means personal sacrifice. If my sons are exelent teachers to there kids and my daughter in law has the skills to make an exelent living in the work place. I would not mind seeing my son lead his house from home.
I agree. However there are some who have to. If we could live on my income alone my wife would quit in a heartbeat and I would let her. I would sure get alot more sleep.
I guess we all make the best decitions we know how for our familes. Being a good leader means making wise decitions and I am doing my best.
One more question. Should a wife always intentionly make less then a man? In other words if the man makes $10 should a woman look for jobs that only pay under $10?
And if a man becomes unemployed should the woman quit her job so as not to make more?
Or are you saying that women do not belong in the work place, period?
And if a man becomes unemployed should the woman quit her job so as not to make more?
Or are you saying that women do not belong in the work place, period?
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
Yes you are right not all men feel this way....I have seen alot of lazy men who wouldn't work if their life depended on it. I think by having a macho job like being a " COP " in itself is fulfilling....even if the wife made more, you are still in a macho job.
I too agree that it is best for at least one parent to stay home even if it is the dad. But what is Gods best ? Gods best is always the way he ordained it.......we humans are always trying to find ways around Gods best and will for our lives.....its just human nature
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
I think I covered this in my post above. Gods will is that the women stays home with the children and the father provides. I think there are very FEW situations that would require a women to work. I think more do it for the wrong reasons.
6) Money should NEVER be a reason to thwart Gods plan for our lives. He will provide as we do what he calls us to do. I do not agree that most of the women working today are doing so because they " HAVE " to. I believe they do it because they " WANT " to. They want more cars, bigger house and more vacations etc.
Then I'm going to have a problem someday. I'm a data analyst, making about 50K a year, and work 8-10 hour days. My wife is a teacher with a masters in education, and while she's currently making 10K less than me, she plans on eventually being a college professor, potentially earning at least 10k or 20k more than me. I'm perfect happy in my chosen profession, and, seeing as how we make more than enough to meet our expenses, I see no need to seek a job for additional income.
Your argument fails terribly here.
What planet were you born on that you don't think husbands and fathers feel the same way? To be honest, if a father doesn't feel that way about his wife and children, something's wrong with him, imo.
Now, in my case, my wife works fewer hours than me, and will still work fewer hours than me when she becomes a college professor. Again, your argument fails.
Regardless of how many hours a man works, any father that is not nurturing is not being a responsible father. Your argument here is not based on scripture, but a manmade view.
I can find no scriptural requirement for male bonding. Most of my male bonding is done with my son.Interesting. Once, when I was laid off, I got a job as a daycare provider. I did it for 6 months. It was an awesome experience. If it weren't for the money, I'd probably have done it longer. But I got a permanent job offer that I couldn't refuse.
Since I was doing it to provide income for the home, and it was my work, your argument fails terribly here.
However, I do think it's morally wrong for a parents to pump out kids and then stick them in daycare all day long and let someone else raise their kids. I personally think children should stay at home until they're roughly kindergarten aged.
When I was working day care, I was a provider and leader. Again, your argument is baseless.
Your view is inconsistent, because you hold to the view that men should make more than women.
I do agree with you here to a point, but so long as a parent is there when the kids get home from school, there is nothing immoral or ungodly about a woman working.
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
God said women should be keepers at HOME....Titus 2:5 ....to be sensible, pure, Workers at home kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonered.
God made man to be the leaders and providers again....And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him an help fit for him (or better "a suitable helper."). And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found a suitable helper.
Now, you notice in that, that from the very beginning, God designed someone to be in charge, and someone to help. Someone to be, as it were, "authority," and someone to be "submission." Someone to be the leader and someone to be the follower. Someone to take care of the provision and someone to be provided for. And from the very beginning the man had the role of the headship, and the woman had the role of the one for whom that headship was provided. The man was the one who protected, provided, preserved, and cared for the woman who was "a fitting," or "suitable helper" for him. "The LORD God (then desiring to give this to man, verse 21), caused a deep sleep (a divine anesthetic) to fall on Adam, and he slept: then He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."
SOUNDS VERY SCRIPTURAL TO ME !
God made man to be the leaders and providers again....And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him an help fit for him (or better "a suitable helper."). And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found a suitable helper.
Now, you notice in that, that from the very beginning, God designed someone to be in charge, and someone to help. Someone to be, as it were, "authority," and someone to be "submission." Someone to be the leader and someone to be the follower. Someone to take care of the provision and someone to be provided for. And from the very beginning the man had the role of the headship, and the woman had the role of the one for whom that headship was provided. The man was the one who protected, provided, preserved, and cared for the woman who was "a fitting," or "suitable helper" for him. "The LORD God (then desiring to give this to man, verse 21), caused a deep sleep (a divine anesthetic) to fall on Adam, and he slept: then He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."
SOUNDS VERY SCRIPTURAL TO ME !
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
Again this all boils down to Gods best. There are alot of things we all do that are not Gods best or in his will. That doesn't make it right....just OK and ACCEPTABLE.
M
Marco
Guest
It's okay Glory-to-God. I know you mean well. Many families have a caring parent at home and that is what counts. I know we are all very far from God's best, hence Jesus Christ.
I'm am glad you care so much for the family unit. It is sad to know your friend who is a stay-at-home isn't happy. It's too bad. I know many that are and the kids are just great
I'm am glad you care so much for the family unit. It is sad to know your friend who is a stay-at-home isn't happy. It's too bad. I know many that are and the kids are just great
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
webdog please share what the context is because every sermon or teaching I have heard on this subject, says that is EXACTLY what it says. I don't see how it can be taken any other way ?
If it can....than women can be preachers and leaders too !
Marco I didn't say he wasn't happy he enjoys teaching his kids and all and is good at it. But like any man would he feels his job and responsibility is to be the " Provider " and his wife should be home. God gave us those desires and drives so that what he created would work properly. To say we can change what God has designed when it comes to man and womans roles in marriage.....gives lots of room for homosexuals and feminist to have certain rights like gay marriage and women leaders.
Just doesn't sound right now does it ?
If it can....than women can be preachers and leaders too !
Marco I didn't say he wasn't happy he enjoys teaching his kids and all and is good at it. But like any man would he feels his job and responsibility is to be the " Provider " and his wife should be home. God gave us those desires and drives so that what he created would work properly. To say we can change what God has designed when it comes to man and womans roles in marriage.....gives lots of room for homosexuals and feminist to have certain rights like gay marriage and women leaders.
Just doesn't sound right now does it ?
No, it doesn't sound right.
Several here have said that they do not feel that they should make all the money and that their wife should not work. They don't have that desire that you seem to think is God-given. Did God just forget to give them that desire? I propose that it is a desire born out of unwillingness to change a tradition and out of materialistic pride.
No, allowing women to work is not going to inevitably lead to gay marriage. The question of women in leadership positions outside the church is being discussed elsewhere right now--many of us see no problem with it. Since the question of women pastors is completely unrelated to women holding secular jobs, that's irrelevant.
I find this irksome. I think that the reason you and I are so opposed on this is because you think that men should be macho and I think they should be masculine.
macho: characterized by machismo : aggressively virile
machismo: 1 : a strong sense of masculine pride : an exaggerated masculinity
2 : an exaggerated or exhilarating sense of power or strength
I don't think that a person's masculinity or femininity is necessarily derived from the job that they do. A man can be masculine and be a nursing home attendant. A woman can be feminine and be an astronomer.
On the other hand, men who are macho aren't masculine, in my opinion. To me proper mature masculinity or femininity requires a sense of self-assurance--not pride, but an ability to overlook the criticisms of others if you know you're making a good decision. If a man needs to go out and look for a job that requires hard physical labor, danger, or aggressiveness in order to feel like he's proved he's a man--or feels the need to keep his wife from getting a job she would like because it is too high priority or pays to well--I would say he's immature.
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
I agree a mans masculinity isn't determained by his job. All I was pointing out was that Deejay said he made less than his wife and that didn't effect his masculinity......in which I pointed out yes but your masculinity is found in your job as a cop....not making more than your wife.
Another point I made was that if christians have no problem redefining Gods roles for men and women as shown in scripture.... than why do we fight the ideas of those of the homosexuals or anyone who wants to define to them whats right or wrong ? Its ok for SINGLE women to raise and adopt kids too....kids don't need a two parent home like God ordained now do they ? Redefine God roles and you have problems no matter how much you try and justify it.
By the way everything becomes a " Slippery Slope " when you mess with Gods order.
Another point I made was that if christians have no problem redefining Gods roles for men and women as shown in scripture.... than why do we fight the ideas of those of the homosexuals or anyone who wants to define to them whats right or wrong ? Its ok for SINGLE women to raise and adopt kids too....kids don't need a two parent home like God ordained now do they ? Redefine God roles and you have problems no matter how much you try and justify it.
By the way everything becomes a " Slippery Slope " when you mess with Gods order.