Stealth Jihadism and Preterism – Satan's Co-Conspirators

[lastday]

Both despise God's Plan by denying a future Redemption for Israel!
One subtly diverts us away from the Declaration of Independence!!
The other obfuscates and diverts us from the “Doctrine of Christ”!!!

Satan is preparing the Nations for the coming of Antichrist!
He is employing some who display a "spirit of Antichrist"!!
Twenty years from 2010 is the year of the Antichrist!!!
Mel Miller

 

[RAdam]

Good grief. I believe that preterism is incorrect according to the bible, but I also believe that people have carnalized the scriptures to get a future national restoration of Israel after the flesh. Both are incorrect positions according to God's word. I will say this: saying that one position is Satanic while holding the other position is extremely dishonest and arrogant.

By the way, you say, "Twenty years from 2010 is the year of the Antichrist!!!" Jesus said, "of that day and hour knoweth no man." I'll take the word of Jesus Christ every time.

 

[lastday]

RAdam,
You write:

By the way, you say, "Twenty years from 2010 is the year of the Antichrist!!!" Jesus said, "of that day and hour knoweth no man." I'll take the word of Jesus Christ every time.

I am in total agreement with this quote as long as you stick to the "Day @ Hour"!!!
Mel

 

[HankD]

Both despise God's Plan by denying a future Redemption for Israel!
One subtly diverts us away from the Declaration of Independence!!
The other obfuscates and diverts us from the “Doctrine of Christ”!!!

Satan is preparing the Nations for the coming of Antichrist!
He is employing some who display a "spirit of Antichrist"!!
Twenty years from 2010 is the year of the Antichrist!!!
Mel Miller

Hi lastday,

True, the scene is being set and the actors are backstage waiting their que, but the preterists here at the BB are those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, hold to the doctrines of the Incarnation, the Hypostatic union, the Trinity and all the other orthodox teachings of Christianity apart from their view of the Second Coming.

Though the Times of the Gentiles is not typified by "signs" which are for Israel, Jesus spoke of the days just before His Coming which would be indications like the gathering of the clouds just before a storm,the fig tree putting forth the green shoot/leaves (presumably the nation of Israel) before the appearance of the fruit.

As these indicators increase our preterist brethren will probaby capitulate.

Next on the scene of the Conflict of the Ages are the astronomical (not ASTROLOGICAL) indicators.

Iniquity already abounds and will get worse and worse.

When we begin to see these foreshadows multipling then we know that the Hebrew generation which will go into the Tribulation is here on earth.

Given the testimony of faith in Jesus Christ and non-cultic orthodoxy, apart from their eschatology (or lack thereof), of our preterist brethren (at least here on the BB), then personally, I doubt that they are of antichrist.

If there are, then IMO, it would be self-deceived individuals here and there as well as among futurists.

As a side issue (though relevant) preterists make an issue of "flesh and blood" not entering the kingdom of God.

However Jesus Christ shed His blood and bore witness to the world that He is "flesh and bones".

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.​

Christ in his material and glorified body of flesh and bones now being made alive by the power of the Holy Spirit and not the oxygenated blood​

of mortal humanity as He was previous to the crucifixion.

KJV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:​

NKJV 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,​

Now the JW's claim that Jesus was not really flesh and bones but only presented that appearance to the disciple so as to not frighten them anymore than they already were. In other words He deceived them and did not tell the truth that He was "flesh and bones".

I hope the preterists among us don't adhere to that position.

Jesus Christ is alive in heaven in his flesh and bone glorified body and will return in that same body as we are told in Acts 1:11.

Acts 1

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

We shall be like Him and not some sinful Roman general.

HankD

 

[lastday]

HankD,
We agree doctrinally, but I would point out 3 things that seem unclear to you:
ONE: I did not use the word "astrological". Please note that it was "astrophysical"!
TWO: Tom is not "of the antichrist" but his teaching is "of the spirit of antichrist!!
THREE: I agree with the standards expressed by our BB Administrative Board!!!

The BaptistBoard.com's Administrative Council has determined that the doctrine referred to as "Millennial Exclusion" falls outside the bounds of traditional orthodox Christain teaching. Therefore, the Administrative Council has deemed this false teaching to be "damnable heresies" (II Peter 2:1), and has reached the decision to revoke the membership of those who continue to spread this heresy here on the Baptist Board.

It is clearly "heresy" for believers to constantly dismiss the "Doctrine of Christ" that
He is "coming in the flesh". Over and over I attempted to get Tom to agree that the
Present Participle in 2 John 1:7 refers to Christ's "ongoing existence in the flesh"!

I further urged that John's use of the Perfect Participle in I John 4:2 demands that
His "continuance in a body of glorified flesh and bones" is essential to the Faith!!

Tom refuses to admit the fact that Faith must include the "Doctrine of Christ"!!!
Mel Miller

 

[RAdam]

RAdam,
You write:

I am in total agreement with this quote as long as you stick to the "Day @ Hour"!!!
Mel

Are you serious? Surely you realize that by the phrase "day and hour" Jesus meant that noone was given the knowledge nor could they gain the knowledge of when He would return. You claim to know the time.

 

[Winman]

Good grief. I believe that preterism is incorrect according to the bible, but I also believe that people have carnalized the scriptures to get a future national restoration of Israel after the flesh. Both are incorrect positions according to God's word. I will say this: saying that one position is Satanic while holding the other position is extremely dishonest and arrogant.

By the way, you say, "Twenty years from 2010 is the year of the Antichrist!!!" Jesus said, "of that day and hour knoweth no man." I'll take the word of Jesus Christ every time.

No, Paul in Romans 11 makes it clear he is speaking of Jews in the flesh.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul is making a clear distinction between Gentiles who are believers and Jews according to the flesh. Then he goes on to describe Gentile believers as a wild olive tree graffed into the natural olive tree which is national Israel according to the flesh.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Again, Paul is making a clear distinction here. The Gentile believers are the wild olive tree, the Jews are natural branches.

Then Paul goes on to teach that a remnant of Jews according to the flesh will be saved.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Paul says if the Jews remain not in unbelief, God is able to graff them in again. He explains that at the present time blindness "in part" (some Jews were being saved) has come upon Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And then he shows that all Israel shall be saved. Paul also shows that God will keep the covenant he made with the Jews.

Paul is absolutely speaking of the flesh here, those who are Gentiles according to the flesh, and those who are Jews according to the flesh.

Replacement theology teaches that the Gentiles replace the Jews, that is absolutely contrary to what Paul teaches here.

 

[RAdam]

I have regularly maintained that Paul in Romans 9, 10, and 11 uses the phrase "Israel" to talk about God's people among the Jews, not Jews and Gentiles combined. This is clearly seen because in the same context as the words Jew and Israel are used we also see the word Gentile. Obviously, they aren't speaking of the same people.

However, I would maintain that the phrase does not refer to the entire body of Israel after the flesh, or the nation of Israel as a whole. Rather, it must be observed by the context to refer to a portion of the nation, that being God's people among that nation.

 

[lastday]

RAdam
I believe no more or less than what Jesus told us to believe!
You wrote:

Surely you realize that by the phrase "day and hour" Jesus meant that no one was given the knowledge nor could they gain the knowledge of when He would return. You claim to know the time.

Jesus said "we will know when the End is Near"!! Matt.24:33.
We will know for 1260 days that the Day is near. We can assume that the Year will be 2033...2000 years after Christ died. We know it will be the first or second day of the
Feast of Tabernacles, IMO...based on Hosea 5:14 to 6:2; Zech.14:5-9; Dan.7:22-27...when even the Jews, knowing their Messiah is "coming with the Saints", will begin to
"mourn and beg to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man"!!! Luke 21:34-36; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7.
Mel Miller

 

[Logos1]

Mel just needs a little more rope

I could comment on this, but Lastday does such a good job of hanging himself out to dry I don't really need to. He just needs a little more rope to finish the job.



“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Much appreciated Mel

 

[RAdam]

RAdam
I believe no more or less than what Jesus told us to believe!
You wrote:

Jesus said "we will know when the End is Near"!! Matt.24:33.
We will know for 1260 days that the Day is near. We can assume that the Year will be 2033...2000 years after Christ died. We know it will be the first or second day of the
Feast of Tabernacles, IMO...based on Hosea 5:14 to 6:2; Zech.14:5-9; Dan.7:22-27...when even the Jews, knowing their Messiah is "coming with the Saints", will begin to
"mourn and beg to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man"!!! Luke 21:34-36; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7.
Mel Miller

If you'll read the context of that section of Matthew 24, as well as Mark 13 and Luke 21, you'll see that Jesus is giving them signs that will be present after 70 AD. He gave them a very specific sign for the destruction of Jerusalem and then gave them general signs that would occur at all points regularly after Jerusalem's destruction so that they would always be watching and be ready for the return of Christ. He then tells them that they will not know the day and hour of His coming. It could not be clearer.

Now, as to 2033, you are basing that off of a crucifixion date of 33 AD. That is hardly concrete. If we knew it for 1260 days, if we knew it would be the first or second day of the Feast of the Tabernacles, we would know the "day and hour" and Jesus Himself would be a liar.

 

[Winman]

I have regularly maintained that Paul in Romans 9, 10, and 11 uses the phrase "Israel" to talk about God's people among the Jews, not Jews and Gentiles combined. This is clearly seen because in the same context as the words Jew and Israel are used we also see the word Gentile. Obviously, they aren't speaking of the same people.

However, I would maintain that the phrase does not refer to the entire body of Israel after the flesh, or the nation of Israel as a whole. Rather, it must be observed by the context to refer to a portion of the nation, that being God's people among that nation.

You are correct, Paul is speaking of a remnant. When the nations come against Israel and attack it, two thirds of the Jews will be killed and only a third remain. This is who will be saved.

Zech 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

 

[RAdam]

You are correct, Paul is speaking of a remnant. When the nations come against Israel and attack it, two thirds of the Jews will be killed and only a third remain. This is who will be saved.

Zech 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Look, I really don't want to go down this road again. You and I have argued over this and neither is going to convince the other.

 

[Winman]

Look, I really don't want to go down this road again. You and I have argued over this and neither is going to convince the other.

I don't think you and I have argued about this before, maybe you are thinking of someone else.

All I am doing is submitting scripture to support my position. I believe that two thirds of the Jews will be killed when the nations come against Israel. Jesus himself will come and fight against those nations (Zech 14) and a third of the Jews will turn to Jesus and be saved.

That is simply what I think these scriptures are saying. You have every right to disagree.

 

[asterisktom]

I could comment on this, but Lastday does such a good job of hanging himself out to dry I don't really need to. He just needs a little more rope to finish the job.



“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Much appreciated Mel

I'm just reading all of these for the entertainment value. Not going to touch this whole thread with a ten-foot pole.

[Ahem] That was a metaphor too. :tongue3:

 

[asterisktom]

Now the JW's claim that Jesus was not really flesh and bones but only presented that appearance to the disciple so as to not frighten them anymore than they already were. In other words He deceived them and did not tell the truth that He was "flesh and bones".

I hope the preterists among us don't adhere to that position.
...

HankD

No, I definitely don't believe that. In fact I don't personally know any Preterist who believe that Jesus was not flesh and bones when He appeared to His disciples. This is clearly demonstrated when He invited doubting Thomas (as opposed to "spirit of Antichrist Thomas") to feel His side, etc.

It's a shame that we even have to say this, but the more obnoxious and ill-informed statements that come from people like Mel the more we will have to keep saying this.

OK. Now I'm putting down the ten-foot pole.

 

[lastday]

Winman,
Thank you 1,000 times for your brilliant exposition of Apostle Paul's teaching!
I wish I could do as well as you in defending the Faith as delivered to him!!
It seems some friends are absolutely opposed to consider the evidence!!!

I am referring especially, now, to RAdam's Post #8 at 1:28 PM and also to that of:
Post #10 by Logos confirming what I have written about Satan's Co-Conspirators!
Maybe the BB Administrative Board should consider his view an example of heresy!!
Logos1 maintains, with Tom Riggle: Denial of the "Doctrine of Christ" is not heresy!!!
Mel Miller

 

[lastday]

Lastday

RAdam,
You wrote:

If you'll read the context of that section of Matthew 24, as well as Mark 13 and Luke 21, you'll see that Jesus is giving them signs that will be present after 70 AD. He gave them a very specific sign for the destruction of Jerusalem and then gave them general signs that would occur at all points regularly after Jerusalem's destruction so that they would always be watching and be ready for the return of Christ. He then tells them that they will not know the day and hour of His coming. It could not be clearer.

You have expressed better than I what Jesus intended for Jewish Believers!
They know, better than we, that Jesus must come on a Saturday or Sunday!!
I believe they will suspect that Meshiach Yeshua will not appear until Sunday!!!
Mel

 

[HankD]

HankD,
We agree doctrinally, but I would point out 3 things that seem unclear to you:
ONE: I did not use the word "astrological". Please note that it was "astrophysical"!
TWO: Tom is not "of the antichrist" but his teaching is "of the spirit of antichrist!!
THREE: I agree with the standards expressed by our BB Administrative Board!!!

It is clearly "heresy" for believers to constantly dismiss the "Doctrine of Christ" that
He is "coming in the flesh". Over and over I attempted to get Tom to agree that the
Present Participle in 2 John 1:7 refers to Christ's "ongoing existence in the flesh"!

I further urged that John's use of the Perfect Participle in I John 4:2 demands that
His "continuance in a body of glorified flesh and bones" is essential to the Faith!!

Tom refuses to admit the fact that Faith must include the "Doctrine of Christ"!!!
Mel Miller

I shouted astronomical not because of anything you said mel. Many moons ago I used the very same word "astronomical" and was chastised for preaching astrology (oh well). So, I was expressing my paranoia but not for your statements.

I totally agree with the concept of the Coming of Christ as a present participle happening, it has principally to do with the fact that He continues on in His humanity and has committed himself to that state of being for eternity in His glorified body of flesh and bones made alive by the Spirit.

Preterists seem to believe that as well except that they don't see Him as coming to earth as a future event in that resurrected glorified body.

There you and I disagree with them, "every eye shall see Hm".

In addition, whether He calls us home and we are resurrected at a later time or comes for us and we are translated, we also shall have a glorified body of flesh and bone as He does because the Scripture delares "we shall be like Him".

Many, maybe even most, of Christendom does not believe in the bodily flesh and bone resurrection of the believer. Neither do they believe that Christ presently dwells in a glorified body of flesh and bone and will return in that same body but that He has (and we will have) some kind of resurrected ethereal spiritual body in which we will sit on clouds (or some such thing) so, according to your definition of the "Doctrine of Christ (with which I agree)", it would appear then that many others along with the preterists will have to depart the BB.

HankD

 

[RAdam]

RAdam,
You wrote:

You have expressed better than I what Jesus intended for Jewish Believers!
They know, better than we, that Jesus must come on a Saturday or Sunday!!
I believe they will suspect that Meshiach Yeshua will not appear until Sunday!!!
Mel

Why will Jesus have to come on a Saturday or Sunday? I've never yet found that in the word of God. Of course, the word of God also denies your view that we can know the exact time of the coming of our Lord.