Please don’t try and play the victim. The only one reaching here is you. People have said they don’t know about his ultimate faith. That is it. You cannot seem to accept that for some bizarre reason. So you elimate the possibility acting as if God’s grace could not possibly have been received during his final hours. People have been honest in saying that they don’t know. No reaching by anyone in their admission of ignorance. You want to close the book and act as if everyone else is illogical for not making the same ASSUMPTION that you have. Nobody else is making assumptions so please explain how this thread full of people is reaching.
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Stephen Hawking Succumbs 14 March AD 2018
- Thread starter Jerome
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Please don’t try and play the victim. The only one reaching here is you. People have said they don’t know about his ultimate faith. That is it. You cannot seem to accept that for some bizarre reason. So you elimate the possibility acting as if God’s grace could not possibly have been received during his final hours. People have been honest in saying that they don’t know. No reaching by anyone in their admission of ignorance. You want to close the book and act as if everyone else is illogical for not making the same ASSUMPTION that you have. Nobody else is making assumptions so please explain how this thread full of people is reaching.
Firstly, don't you agree that there are countless fake deathbed conversions? People who are dying are desperate and will do anything. I am not saying that there aren't actual authentic deathbed conversions (although I will be accused of just that in less than 10 minutes, I'm sure) but odds are, most aren't real, just as the vast majority of Billy Grahams converts weren't actually converted, according to the stats.
Secondly, no one wants Hawking or anyone else, to die in his sin. I hope that Christ did spare him; however, *as far as we know* from Hawking's own testimony, he did not trust in Christ.
In the case of your step father, you were a witness, as you say. If Hawking had a similar experience maybe there will be witness testimony of such a conversion, but for now, *As far as we know* from reality, and his own words, he lived and died a rebellious sinner. There is no evidence to the contrary, unfortunately.
Witnesses aren’t required are they?
Here are some facts. In the past few years Dr. Hawking, possibly the greatest cosmologist who ever lived, had come to believe in:
In reverse order regarding date (he would have loved that!)
1. Intelligent Design.
2. That study of cosmology was to achieve a "theory of everything" which would be "the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we should know the mind of God."
3. “I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science,” conceding that “the laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.”
Who knows how much farther he may have come since admitting to intelligent design three years ago?
The truth is, we can't know for sure.
In reverse order regarding date (he would have loved that!)
1. Intelligent Design.
2. That study of cosmology was to achieve a "theory of everything" which would be "the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we should know the mind of God."
3. “I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science,” conceding that “the laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.”
Who knows how much farther he may have come since admitting to intelligent design three years ago?
The truth is, we can't know for sure.
I assume you are asking if witnesses are required for one to be saved, and that is a good question to ponder, but I am not arguing that they are, just to be clear.
They might be. I don't know. I haven't thought about it before. But, is one a Christian who makes no public profession? Could one who has been regenerated not be so filled with joy that he could not contain it? I don't believe that's possible, but I haven't given this a lot of though, and again, I'm not making that claim above.
When I referred to witnesses, I simply meant that if someone were present they would likely report such a thing and that would be made public, in all likelihood. Maybe not, but probably, if it had taken place.
Now I finally understand what you mean when you say that you are not a Calvinist. Your argument is fully Pelagian, in fact. You are saying that a sinful man can reason his was to salvation. It seems that you are saying, given enough time a sinner will come to God. I'm a bit taken aback by such argument, if I'm honest. Maybe you mean something else. It's also not clear why you seem to be having a very active imagination when it comes to Hawking's salvation. Is he a friend?
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I mean, as I have explained several times, that Calvin did not invent my Soteriology.
Your argument is fully idiotic.
I have said no such thing. Shame on you!
I have said no such thing. Shame on you, again.
You're not. Not in the least.
Yeah, like what I said.
I have quoted him directly. And I have not mentioned his salvation nor have I opined that he was a saved man. That is all just the evil imagining of your heart.
Your attitude is uncalled for, and you can't seem to debate without losing your temper, so you have at it by yourself.
From my perspective, Tom, you noted a trajectory Dr. Hawkings seemed to be taking. You were quite clear that you didn't know or want to speculate if that trajectory's landing point was Heaven. You only noted that:
there was at least a possibility.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
No, I don't think he did misunderstood at all. Neither did I.
Salvation is of the Lord, not any of us. I can agree that what I have seen of his life doesn't look too good. Bottom line, we cannot be sure. No where in scripture does it say we get to stand in place of God and pronounce condemnation.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Disappointing.
Absolutely... that’s what makes us children of God. And we don’t know that in his final earthly moments that he did not come to Christ... we just assume the worst.
Hawking carried a cross much of his adult life. The evil one whispers in his ear... I pray that The HS was also whispering
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Www.washintonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/03/14/im-not-afraid-what-stephen-hawking-said-about-god-his-own-atheism-and-his-own-death
A recent washington post article clears those statements up with further context from hawking. Tney are not ehat you think
A recent washington post article clears those statements up with further context from hawking. Tney are not ehat you think
Brian..how does the Calvinist evaluate the thief on the cross who was most likely sinned his whole life but who recognizes The Christ in the person of Jesus, repents and is saved.. went To Christ that very day.
BTW Brian... ok not sure you and I have the same understanding of Pelegian theology. Are you suggesting that Tom is neglecting the supernatural working of God through the HS... if so I would ardently disagree.
Firstly, you've obviously misunderstood as well. If I'm saying that you have misunderstood, why not ask for clarification rather than doubling down, because now you are arguing against a straw man.
May I ask, may you say with confidence, to a man who has placed his faith in Christ that he will be forgiven his sins and reconciled with God? Or do you tell, I don't know if you will be saved if you trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins?
If you do tell a sinner that he can be confident in Christ's promise to save him if he has faith in Christ, you can also be confident, as th Apostle Paul was in telling men that if they do NOT place their faith in Christ, if the deny the Son, they will be lost. Further, when a man tells us what Hawking has told us below, assuming nothing changes, what can we say of him? If can't speak with the clarity of scripture, I ask why?
Why can't we think of John 3:18? He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18(NKJV)
or For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:37(NKJV)
Here are some quotes from Hawking. This is his confession:
There was one point where religious advocates tried to use a quote from A Brief History Of Time to suggest his belief in God: “It would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God.” However, if it wasn’t clear to people that he was an atheist, in his 2010 book The Grand Design he clarified that it was a metaphorical comment. He later told El Mundo in no uncertain terms: “What I meant by ‘we would know the mind of God’ is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God. Which there isn’t. I’m an atheist.”
He told the paper that our existence is down to pure chance, and that one's goal should be to "seek the greatest value of our action."
Three years later, in an interview with El Mundo, a Spanish-language newspaper, Hawking was even more direct, declaring, "I am an atheist."
He added: "Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation."
He told the paper that our existence is down to pure chance, and that one's goal should be to "seek the greatest value of our action."
Three years later, in an interview with El Mundo, a Spanish-language newspaper, Hawking was even more direct, declaring, "I am an atheist."
He added: "Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation."
Yes. I know that
"I can agree that what I have seen of his life doesn't look too good."
That's an understatement, Since he is a public figure and authored books, we can see clearly that he did not confess Christ. In fact he lead many thousands to the pit, by his words.
"Bottom line, we cannot be sure."
If we can be sure of the gospel, we can be sure of the fate of those you deny it. That's why we send missionaries to ar off lands and tell men that they can be saved by Christ and Christ alone, and if they ignore His generous offer of forgiveness, they will perish.
"No where in scripture does it say we get to stand in place of God and pronounce condemnation."
No one here has pronounced his sentence. We have judged his words against scripture, as all of the Apostles have taught us to do. We warn sinners, don't ignore the light God gives you or you will perish, right? Is telling them that they will perish wrong? Is it sinful to say of an unrepentant sinner, you will be rightly judged by God if you die in you state of unrepentance? I don't see how it is.
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Yes. Hawking made clarifying statement so that there would be no doubt, he was an atheist who thought that the idea of God and Heaven was for weak men.
I've posted some above.
What do you mean by that?
I have to disagree on this Brian.
I don't know but I like to hope for the best not the worst.
Eternity will tell. I'll wait.
It is my belief He whispers in all ears.
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