stigmata, Marian apparitions, etc.

Ed -

Are there any other sources that talk about this "miracle" other than Byzantine Catholic commentary? Is there somewhere that a reputable scientific study was done or that knowledgable, skeptical witnesses were involved?

Have you ever witnessed this event yourself? Suppose someone were able to replicate this trick, would that cast doubt on its valididty for you?

The Catholics are notorious for not allowing scientific examination of their "miracles," so I would be quite surprised if you could find something. The link that you provided also has some very dubious assertions in it. For example, there are three photos of this light yet the author of the page says, "According to our investigations, it has never been possible to film any of the candles or oil lamps igniting by themselves." Do I incur from this that the moment of the "lighting" something happens that has an adverse effect on photographic equipment?

He goes on to say about a video "in his possession,",

This is, at best, a questionable assertion. It took me a good while to download Windows Media Player. Too bad he didn't upload this event for examination. I would be very interested in seeing this feat on film. I was also quite intrigued watching David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear as well. Of course, Copperfield only claims to be an illusionist and other magicians know how he did it.

There was a Catholic lady who posted on this board for a long time named Pauline. Shortly before she stopped posting, Carson had posted something about a miracle that he witnessed. It involved some friend of his who had some rosary beads "turn to gold." Again, this alchemistic event was not validated by any scientific means but what really got under Pauline's craw was that it was also not validated by the RCC. According to her, there was a proper procedure that was to be followed by the church to validate such occurences and the lack of this validation and Carson's claims really upset her.

So I will ask Carson: has the church validated the claims you speak of in the "On the first day of school, I witnessed a miracle" thread or is this another unverified account? Has this particular incident been investigated by scientific method under controlled experimentation or even by reputable magicians?

There is a fairly well known magician named James Randi who has made it a career to expose hoaxes. He has an account of ONE MILLION dollars set aside for anyone who can show him ANY paranormal event under a controlled environment. To date, the closest anyone ever came was a water dowser.

http://www.randi.org/

Do miracles exist? Sure they do. The Old and New Testament speak of them. The thing is, they were never done for sensationalism. Christ performed each and every miracle as a sign. When people demanded miracles of Him, He was quite disgusted with them and told them that they were a "wicked and adulterous generation" (Matthew 12:39). Also bear in mind that miracles, even if they are validated, are not necessarily from God.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.

Paul also warned against seeking miracles:

1 Corinthians 1
22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

There is more that I could say but in the interest of brevity I will await a reply to the inquiries I have made.

 

Hi Helen,

You wrote, "God/Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He does NOT contradict Himself."

Then why do you no longer keep the Sabbath?

(some things change, believe it or not; this isn't the best proof text in the world to use)

You wrote, "Walking along highway 50 is illegal"

That's interesting. I must have spoken with at least 10 officers while walking along US 50 (you'd be surprised how helpful law enforcement is in the United States when you're walking in the middle of nowhere) and not one mentioned this to me. You would also think that we had checked about this with the authorities a little bit earlier considering that the walks began in '95 (it's the Interstates that are illegal to walk on).

Thanks for your support!

Hi Abiyah,

Who organized your Walk for Life?

Crossroads, a division of the American Life League - it was started by a group of students from the university I currently attend in 1995, headed by Steve Sanborn. Re. http://www.crossroadswalk.org

How far, from where to where did you walk?

Every step of the way b/t San Francisco and Toronto. I believe it was about 3,000 mi - and we did it in relay, 24 hours a day w/ about 4 shifts a day - each person walking one of the shifts. I figure I walked a total of about 730 miles.

How much was raised?

Oh my, probably about 400,000 just at a very rough estimate. It was raised by speaking at Catholic Churches (we've spoken at Protestant churches in the past, but we didn't have time to look beyond the Catholic Churches this year - we walked so fast) mostly and some from private donors.

How were the funds used?

There were 2 walks.. each walk had an RV, a minivan, and a car. So, they basically paid for whatever car payments, repairs, maintenance, and gas we incurred plus food, media packages, you know.. all the odds and ends of a summer with about 25 walkers total among the two walks.

Were there any protests or any who tried to prevent or reroute your walk?

Not protests.. but when we began across the Golden Gate Bridge, the Bridge patrol stopped us and made us take off our PRO LIFE T-shirts. We ended up appearing on Hannity & Colmes on the Fox News Channel, the Bridge offered an apology, and there is currently a lawsuit being filed through the Saint Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, MI.

I have never joined in any actual walks or pub-
lic protests for the right to life movement, but
I sure did a lot of vocals to a pastor I once had
who believed in abortion

Good for you!

But I opened my mouth, and Scriptures I had
never tried to memorize poured out"

Can you say "Holy Spirit"?

Bless you,

Carson

[ November 14, 2002, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

One more quick question for Ed: are the candles that ignite on their own provided by the priests and workers of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem or are they brought in by the audience?

[ November 14, 2002, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Clint --

This blue fire phenomenon was a small part of a
documentary on the Discover channel quite
some time back. They would not allow anyone
to accompany the priest, so no one saw it
"descend" other than the priest.

He went into the room where it was supposed to
appear, closed the door, and later came out with
the flame, which others received by holding
candles to it.

 

Hi Helen,

Whew.. today has been busy. I caught a ride to the Josephinum (click here) today with Dr. Scott Hahn (click here) and Michael Barber, author of "Singing in the Reign", to sit in on a seminary class, visit a seminarian friend, and see the Pontifical College.

The class was amazing. I wholly suggest the text, "A Father Who Keeps His Promises" if you are interested in understanding Biblical, Covenantal theology.

You wrote, "Carson, I have had students stopped and fined for walking 50. So that's interesting."

I think I may have figured out the solution. We didn't walk on 50 when it was divided; only when it was one piece of asphalt. Perhaps it is illegal to walk on the portions where it is divided (We did this according to the advice of the American Life league), and if memory serves, it was divided along Shingle Springs. I have to think back to when I was maneuvering that R.V. through those hills and mountains.

You wrote, "In the meantime, you sure do avoid the rest of the material. Remember what this thread was about"

Avoid what material? Material that speaks about not committing necromancy? I agree! Necromancy is an abomination to the Lord, and I would never partake in such occult practice.

If you think that praying to the saints is equal to necromancy, then you need to ask yourself the hard question why you pray to Jesus, who is dead.

God bless,

Carson

[ November 15, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

What about my questions, Carson?

You got to see Hahn today. Didn't he advise you how to proceed with your answers?

 

Hi Clint,

You asked, "has the church validated the claims you speak of"

No.

Has this particular incident been investigated by scientific method under controlled experimentation or even by reputable magicians?

No.

I thought that I would also mention that the miracle was a sign that accompanied her message, not of the sensationalism you speak of, and no one demanded the miracle; it just "happened" unexpectedly.

Has your faith community verified the miracles in the Gospels? Have they spoken with the apostles and the eyewitnesses to confirm that the writers of the Gospels were not lying?

Were the miracles in the Gospels investigated by scientific method under controlled experimentation or even by reputable magicians?

"Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 18:3)

As I posted in the thread (my third post) that spoke of this miracle entitled "On the first day of school, I witnessed a miracle.", I wrote:

If you visit http://www.soufanieh.com/20010414.summary.loron.htm you may read a statement by Dr. Philippe Loron, a certified French Neurologist, who carefully examined Myrna on numerous separate occasions; this has been published in an article in Chretiens Magazine (#141, pp. 18-19)

The messages have received "Nihil Obstat" (Latin for "nothing opposed" to the Christian faith) declaration by Rev. Père Naoum Attallah: http://www.soufanieh.com/nihil.obstat.html

God bless,

Carson

[ November 14, 2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

That's just the point, Carson. My "faith community" does not demand signs. We have no need of them. Obviously, your's does.

 

I would urge ANY of the readers of this forum to be very careful with these so called "signs and miracles." It is one of the ways in which people will be (are being) deceived by satan:

If you feel that something is a true "miracle," don't be afraid to have it put under scrutiny. It just may save your soul...

 

Hi Helen,

You wrote, "Carson, your Jesus may be dead."

My Jesus is my High Priest who offers the eternal sacrifice of his body and blood before the Father's glory in heaven. He has risen from the dead and ascended on high. His blood speaks more eloquently than that of Abel and atones for all sin. He is alive and glorified as he is seated upon the throne of David in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

You wrote, "God is not dead. Not one member of the Trinity is dead."

Good! I'm glad that you are able to and have made this distinction.

Now, let's see if you can connect the dots:

1. Christ is a man.
2. Christ is alive in Heaven because he is also God.
3. Christians in heaven are members of Christ's body.
4. Christians on earth are members of Christ's body.
4. Christians in heaven are alive because they reign as members of Christ's body.
5. Christians on earth are united with Christians in heaven because they share in the same body.

This is what we call "the communion of saints". You see, something radical happened when the Church began in time.. something radical beyond all imagination. But, you can't see it without faith.

God bless,

Carson

 

Hi Clint,

You wrote, "My "faith community" does not demand signs."

I did not ask if your faith community needed or demands signs. Not at all.

I asked, "Has your faith community verified the miracles in the Gospels? Have they spoken with the apostles and the eyewitnesses to confirm that the writers of the Gospels were not lying?", which places your criteria of examining miracles to affirm their authenticity right up against the very Gospel accounts that you affirm as true.

This has nothing to do with your need for signs. Not at all.

Hi Helen,

You wrote, "the New Testament miracles were validated by numbers of eyewitnesses. This is evidence courts certainly allow, won't you?"

And how do you know that the documents weren't forged or the accounts of witnesses are false accounts like the Book of Mormon?

God bless,

Carson

 

Carson -

We are unable to verify the evidence of the Gospels with emperical evidence. This REQUIRES faith. Even Christ allowed Thomas to examine his Body and wounds. He did not hold it against the doubting disciple.

You, on the other hand, are QUITE capable of verifying the so called miracles you witness. There is a huge distinction. You are not even willing to allow the Vatican to have a say in this nonesense. I wish I could find the thread where you upset Pauline so badly with this. It must have been deleted. Too bad.

 

Hi Clint,

You wrote, "You, on the other hand, are QUITE capable of verifying the so called miracles you witness."

How was I able to further verify the miracle beyond what I did? I was sitting in the room, Myrna's hands started to exude the oil unexpectedly, and I even asked her if I could smell it and she allowed me to smell it.

I've already shown how the "Vatican" is already examining the messages, stigmata, miracles, etc. that Myrna has been experiencing, and I've given you documentation by a scientist.

What more do you expect? Your demands seem irrational, and you seem not to be listening to what I have been posting (e.g. the Nihil Obstat & empirical evidence). Instead, you seem to be intent on doing anything you can to place doubt where you refuse to place any form of credency for the sake of your prejudice against Catholicism (where you do not have faith). I wouldn't say this if you weren't making irrational demands. I suggest that you examine your critical presuppositions.

Bless you,

Carson

 

John 20

Jesus and Thomas

24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe."
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

 

I never saw any post that said that the vatican was investigating. If this is so, I retract the accusation. However, the "scientist" that you cited was a neurologist. What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? I would be far more interested in an illusionist watching the performance.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Ed: if I could stand before you and duplicate this feat, would it make you question the valididty of it being spiritual?

You are correct in saying that I have no faith in the Catholic Church. They have long been using the art of illusion to win converts and hold sway over their more gullible members.

Believe me, if someone were on this board claiming to be a faith healer, I would be all over them as well. I don't like any trickery used in the Christian faith. Part of the danger in it is that once it is exposed as fraud, the person who built their faith on the illusionist's act is left with no foundation.

When I first joined this board I did not see any problem with Catholicism. It was after I read the numerous posts blaspheming the clear teachings of Scripture and the gullibility of its members that I began to develop a more skeptical eye toward your denomination. However, I will never abandon hope for these individuals. That is why I have begun to post here so much.

There is nothing irrational about expecting some sort of proof for a supposedly supernatural occurence. I am just not as easily duped as you. I would recommend that you start calling the things that you perceive to be supernatural events "alleged" miracles until you can back them up with a bit more proof.

 

Hi Helen,

You wrote, "Carson, you can play all the games with words you want."

I'm not employing word games on this board. I am demonstrating how significantly different necromancy and invoking the intercession of our heavenly brothers and sisters who are alive in Christ and united to us through the power of his Mystical Body is.

You wrote, "WE ARE FORBIDDEN TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE SPIRIT WORLD EXCEPT FOR GOD."

And, as I've shown, when we pray to our brothers and sisters in heaven, this is permissible precisely because they are part of God's own body.

You have declared that God has forbidden contact with the dead by quoting passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. But, in fact, he has not, because he at times has done this himself! For example, God had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits:

"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer ... For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

God indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a Christian asking another Christian in heaven to pray for her. The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

You asked, "have you ever considered it to be an insult to Jesus to try to use anyone else to communicate with Him or the Father?"

Yes, I have. I've considered many notions contrary to Christian truth in my rigorous evaluation of the Christian faith.

You wrote, "When He came down here, people approached Him directly. We are still able to do that. His love and compassion are still there. He is still ultimately accessible to us."

All you have said is true, and I can only affirm with an "Amen".

You wrote, "It is an insult to Him to somehow pretend He isn't and that anyone would need to be in direct disobedience to God by praying to a dead person in order to access Him."

When I would walk into my Father's house (when I was still in high school and lived with my family), I would come indoors after mowing the lawn sit, down at the kitchen table where my sister was doing her homework, and I would start talking with her while my father was washing dishes over at the sink.

"My father would then start yelling at me because of just how insulted he was that I was talking with my sister when he was standing right there - totally accessible!" Of course, that isn't true. My father understood that I was in a relationship with my sister for the precise reason that she is my sister because we share in the nature of our Father.

It is precisely the unique mediatorship of Christ that gives power and rise to unique forms of sharing in his one, unique mediating role between the Father and humanity.

The intercession of fellow Christians — which is what the saints in heaven are — also does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed, "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

Again, the Saints are not dead. They are alive in Christ Jesus.

Luke 20, "And Jesus said to them, 'The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him.'"

You wrote, "Finally, as long as you and other Catholics concentrate on faith through what your eyes can see and ears hear"

Hmm.. I'm the one advocating praying to someone you can't see and can't hear, and you have this to say? That's a little odd and out of place.

Do you actually think that I do not believe that Jesus is present to me at this very moment as I type on this keyboard? Do you actually think that I do not believe that I can worship at this very moment without being in a Catholic church?

If so, Helen, you are very, very mistaken.

You wrote, "and the rites you must go through, you are forgetting that Christ told the woman at the well that the time would come -- and is now -- when all true believers would worship in spirit and in truth."

I'm glad that you brought this verse up. It's one of my favorites in the Bible because it speaks of the nature of the Divine Liturgy, and if I had the time (and a willing audience with good will), I would show you how John orchestrates his Gospel narrative in such a way as to show that it is precisely through the Mass that Christians worship in Spirit and Truth - how this verse is directly tied to other verses in his Gospel through the unique concept of "the hour". Maybe some other time?

Bless you,

Carson

[ November 15, 2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]