Still tithing?

[Ivon Denosovich]

Tom Butler, thanks for the response to my question about blessing/curses. I enjoyed reading it. It seems like you've spent some time on this issue in conversations past.

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

TCGreek, I had no idea tithes funded national security back in ye olden daise. Were did you find that MacArthur factoid?

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom Butler, thanks for the response to my question about blessing/curses. I enjoyed reading it. It seems like you've spent some time on this issue in conversations past.

You're very kind. I have no quarrel with those who give cheerfully and generously,even though they do not find tithing to be a NT teaching.

When Paul said to give as God has prospered, it seems to me that he was simply saying, the more God blesses you financially, the more you should give. That sounds like proportionate giving to me--that is, some percentage.

In the absence of a specific percentage from Paul and the other NT writers, the only place we can look for guidance is in the OT, and to Jesus endorsement of the tithe. If it is not meant for NT believers, it does help to take the arbitrariness out of our giving habits.

 

[TCGreek]

TCGreek, I had no idea tithes funded national security back in ye olden daise. Were did you find that MacArthur factoid?

I don't think you got that from the quote, unless I overlooked it.

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

TCGreek, I interpreted this, "Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel," as some sort of military undertaking. But that could have been just me.

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

... it does help to take the arbitrariness out of our giving habits.

Theology aside, that is admittedly a very strong case for tithing.

 

[Aaron]

I don't think you got that from the quote, unless I overlooked it.

It's implicated. If the tithe was primarily a "tax" to fund the civil government, it follows that Israel's armies were funded through the tithe.

 

[TCGreek]

TCGreek, I interpreted this, "Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel," as some sort of military undertaking. But that could have been just me.

1. I understand how you can draw that conclusion, but don't you think it is a bit anachronistic since Macarthur didn't mention this military idea?

2. BTW, how the tithe was used makes for a good study.

 

[TCGreek]

It's implicated. If the tithe was primarily a "tax" to fund the civil government, it follows that Israel's armies were funded through the tithe.

I think this part of the quote would be more fitting for what you are arguing:

"All giving apart from that required to run the government was purely voluntary (cf. Exodus 25:2; 1 Chronicles 29:9). Each person gave whatever was in his heart to give; no percentage or amount was specified" (emphasis mine).

 

[Aaron]

I found the following from John Macarthur:

Because Israel was a theocracy, the Levitical priests acted as the civil government.

I'm not sure about this statement. As I recall, Jethro advised Moses to appoint civil rulers out of all the tribes to judge the people. There were rulers of tens, fifties, hundreds and thousands. Were all these funded by the tithe?

 

[TCGreek]

I'm not sure about this statement. As I recall, Jethro advised Moses to appoint civil rulers out of all the tribes to judge the people. There were rulers of tens, fifties, hundreds and thousands. Were all these funded by the tithe?

If that had to be the case, then they would have been. For what purpose was tithing in the Israel community?

 

[Aaron]

If that had to be the case, then they would have been.

That's begging the question. The tithe was used for the maintenance of the Levites, but the rulers of tens, fifties, hundreds and thousands were appointed from among all the tribes. Would it have been lawful to use the tithe for rulers of Judah or Gad?

For what purpose was tithing in the Israel community?

Primarily the worship of Jehovah. Secondly, the maintenance of the Tabernacle and the priesthood. To say, as MacArthur does, that since Israel was a theocracy, the Levites served as the civil government is a non sequitur. I'm no O.T. expert, but I've read every word of the O.T. multiple times, and I never came away with the idea that the Levites served as the civil government.

As I recall, the first centuries of Israel's occupation of Canaan was called the period of the Judges. I don't know if there were a tax, but the Judges were not Levites. Samuel, the last and most reknowned Judge was of the tribe of Ephraim. When Israel rejected their theocracy and asked for a king, Samuel warned them that their King would impose a 10% tax upon their wealth. But this wasn't the tithe (1 Sam. 8:15-18). Above that he would take the best of their properties for his house and the best of their children for his armies and servants. The first king was of the tribe of Benjamin, and the second of Judah. Would it have been lawful for them to be maintained with the tithe?

I see no connection between the tithe and the civil government of Israel.

 

[TCGreek]

That's begging the question. The tithe was used for the maintenance of the Levites, but the rulers of tens, fifties, hundreds and thousands were appointed from among all the tribes. Would it have been lawful to use the tithe for rulers of Judah or Gad?

1. Neither am I saying that that was the case. Look at the context of my statement.

Primarily the worship of Jehovah. Secondly, the maintenance of the Tabernacle and the priesthood. To say, as MacArthur does, that since Israel was a theocracy, the Levites served as the civil government is a non sequitur. I'm no O.T. expert, but I've read every word of the O.T. multiple times, and I never came away with the idea that the Levites served as the civil government.

2. I must agree with you here.

As I recall, the first centuries of Israel's occupation of Canaan was called the period of the Judges. I don't know if there were a tax, but the Judges were not Levites. Samuel, the last and most reknowned Judge was of the tribe of Ephraim. When Israel rejected their theocracy and asked for a king, Samuel warned them that their King would impose a 10% tax upon their wealth. But this wasn't the tithe (1 Sam. 8:15-18). Above that he would take the best of their properties for his house and the best of their children for his armies and servants. The first king was of the tribe of Benjamin, and the second of Judah. Would it have been lawful for them to be maintained with the tithe?

I see no connection between the tithe and the civil government of Israel.

3. You have successfully argued your point and I find departure from the text.

 

[Carpenter]

I really find this whole thread rather disheartening. It is amazing how we will go to any length to try and convince ourselves that what we want to do is the right thing to do.

You can argue whether giving is obligatory or optional, but if it is not from the heart and willfully contributed, it may as well not be given at all.

If we have to ask if we are doing the right thing by not giving or tithing, then I think we are just trying to put some salve on our own consciences. What is the Holy Spirit leading you to do? That's what is important.

Can we truly be a living sacrifice if we are worried about whether or not we can withhold our earnings (or anything) from God? We have to lay our all on the alter and be willing to say "God, it is ALL yours! Use it, Use me in any way you see fit!"

Churches spend more time dwelling on these "mute" issues today than carrying out the Great Commission. Christ taught us to be humble servants and care more about the needs of others than ourselves, yet we spend so much time doing the opposite.

I don't really mean to be so critical, but there is a world out there that needs to hear the Gospel, and issues like this take the church's focus away from that.

God Bless,
carpenter

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

What is the Holy Spirit leading you to do?

This thread, in its own way, was intended to answer just that.

We have to lay our all on the alter and be willing to say "God, it is ALL yours! Use it, Use me in any way you see fit!"

I find your melodrama to border on dishonesty. Nothing personal.

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

My new church home which I plan on giving to:

http://www.questcommunity.com/

 

[rjprince]

(after quoting Carpenter, "We have to lay our all on the alter and be willing to say "God, it is ALL yours! Use it, Use me in any way you see fit!"

I find your melodrama to border on dishonesty. Nothing personal.

I did not see it that way at all! To suggest that someone is walking the line of honesty vss dishonest IS PERSONAL. To say that they were melodramatic is not.

In any case, Tithing was OT for Israel, not commanded to post-cross believers. None-the-less, ALL THAT WE HAVE BELONGS TO GOD, whether or not we acknowledge it! It is sad that some use the truth that tithing is not commanded for believers as an excuse not to give much. Some do.

I took Carpenter's comments as a call to examine our hearts to recognize that ALL WE HAVE is a gift from God, all the way down to each successive breath that we draw in and breathe out. Our giving, Time, Talents, and Treasure -- should reflect a recognition of this truth.

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

You could be right rjprince. But this looked rather condescending:

"I really find this whole thread rather disheartening. It is amazing how we will go to any length to try and convince ourselves that what we want to do is the right thing to do."

But you could be right. That's why I said border. Still nothing personal.

 

[rjprince]

You could be right rjprince.

But then again there are those times when I really HAVE been wrong... no doubt about that!

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

Aahhh... you & me both friend, rjprince. You and me both.