Stop misrepresenting my view!

[Skandelon]

Chicken. You know where this is heading

Yeah, I do know where it is heading. Its heading toward arrogant know-it-alls making speculations as if they are known facts like all those different Calvinistic camps do.

Expert political pundants can't even guess what is going to happen in our own nations election, do you really think we can come close to guessing how our infinite creator went about making His eternal determinations?

and you have no answer. :type:

You are right and I'm ok with that.

I gave you Paul's answer...

 

[Aaron]

No you didn't, because you don't understand Paul's answer.

You're only escape is to deny God's omniscience, and assert that God had a plan for this world other than the Passion.

 

[Skandelon]

No you didn't, because you don't understand Paul's answer.

Paul's answer reveals you don't understand near as much as you think you do...

You're only escape is to deny God's omniscience, and

I don't deny God's omniscience, I just refuse to draw conclusions about our infinite God based on my finite understanding, especially conclusions which clearly contradict scripture's teaching about the Holiness of our God.

assert that God had a plan for this world other than the Passion.

I never made such an assertion. You like to read your answers into questions I refuse to answer. I stop talking where scripture stops...but you keep right on talking as if you know more than Paul.

 

[glfredrick]

Paul's answer reveals you don't understand near as much as you think you do...

I don't deny God's omniscience, I just refuse to draw conclusions about our infinite God based on my finite understanding, especially conclusions which clearly contradict scripture's teaching about the Holiness of our God.

I never made such an assertion. You like to read your answers into questions I refuse to answer. I stop talking where scripture stops...but you keep right on talking as if you know more than Paul.

I have no doubt that YOU have decided what God can or cannot do.

God, however, reveals something other than that in Scripture.

You do deny God's omniscience by defining it narrowly within bounds that you can understand. In denying that God can know ALL THINGS without regard to time or the free will choices of man, you effectively deny the God of the Bible.

You also deny that God could have caused prophets under the power of the Holy Spirit to accurately foretell what God would bring about -- but of course, He did and they did.

 

[Skandelon]

I have no doubt that YOU have decided what God can or cannot do.

I only draw conclusions that scripture draws. I'm not the one speculating based upon finite linear logic as to how God determines this prior to that...yall are

You do deny God's omniscience by defining it narrowly within bounds that you can understand.

Quote me and then we'll talk about it otherwise I'll presume this is an unfounded strawman attack... You sound like you are talking to an Open Theist. How would you like for me to address you as if your a hyperist or fatalist?

You also deny that God could have caused prophets under the power of the Holy Spirit to accurately foretell what God would bring about -- but of course, He did and they did.

Prove it. Quote me. Put up or HUSH up.

 

[Aaron]

I don't deny God's omniscience...

I never made such an assertion.

I didn't say you did. I said that's your only escape from your self contradiction and the difficulties you think plague Calvinism.

 

[glfredrick]

I acknowledge the difficulty of God not preventing heinous crimes, but to pretend that difficulty is somehow equal to the difficulty of a deterministic system that has God originating and predetermining the intent of the criminal and the act itself is absurd. I know, I know, you bath that difficulty in 'second causes' and long politically correct explanations, but the end is the same...God is causally determining evil intent and action.

You seem to prefer the "heinous crime" that happens in and to the flesh versus the far worse "heinous crime" that is the result of every sinful human being -- hopeless damnation for eternity. When will you consider that what happens to human beings here and now in the flesh is nothing compared to what is in store for all unless or until one is in Christ?

When you leave no room for autonomous choices, intents and actions you leave God as the only chooser, intender and actor and thus create HUGE divine culpability issues that scripture's revelation NEVER affords. The fact is, that scripture explains His motive and plans for giving over this fallen world to the rule of the evil one; it never explains His motive and plans for predetermining it all Himself. You mistake scriptures teaching on the former to support you assumptions of the latter.

In making God culpable for the sins of humankind -- which you attempt to do when you disavow His divine sovereigty -- you fail to realize the true state of sinful human beings and also that no human being ever gets anything worse than what it is that they ultimately deserve, save that God's mercy offers us hope that we cannot and do not earn and God's grace gives us gifts that are utterly unmerited.

 

[glfredrick]

Yes.

Does that prove God likewise predetermined Jeff Dahmer to do his crimes?

NO.

Plus, I don't believe God predetermined the crucifixion in the way you probably do (i.e. casually predetermining each individual nature so they could not have done otherwise etc). But instead, by more 'normative' means, like Jesus speaking in parables to prevent the Jewish leaders from repenting...and making provoking statements such as "drink my blood and eat my flesh" without giving much explanation and telling his followers to keep quite about miracles because it wasn't the right time, etc.

Then how do you explain the prophecies of the cross; the very words spoken, the fact that it was predicted that Messiah would die upon a cursed tree, etc.? It would appear to students of OT prophecy that God had a very precise plan in mind and that Jesus knew that plan well in advance.

 

[DaChaser1]

I only draw conclusions that scripture draws. I'm not the one speculating based upon finite linear logic as to how God determines this prior to that...yall are

Quote me and then we'll talk about it otherwise I'll presume this is an unfounded strawman attack... You sound like you are talking to an Open Theist. How would you like for me to address you as if your a hyperist or fatalist?

Prove it. Quote me. Put up or HUSH up.

Do you think God causes the future to happen per the prophets, or just 'sees the future" and tells the prophets what to see?

Does God predetermine results, or "waits" to see just how we react?
that Judas and Pharoah could have "willed" themselves out at any time?