Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You have demonstrated nothing apart from showing you have an opinion and even that is vague at best.
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Strange Things the Holy Spirit Cannot Do….
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: You have demonstrated nothing apart from showing you have an opinion and even that is vague at best.
This is not opinion it is fact.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Without using dictionaries tell me what the meaning of this verse is (if I hadn't told you:
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Or the meaning of this verse:
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Or the meaning of this verse:
Psalms 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
--Interesting that "unicorns" have "horns"
HP,
What I find so fasinating about your insistence that the KJV translation is correct in Romans 8:1, is that you think that this second line "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" makes a case for your erronious pov that faith alone is heresy!
Romans 8 is one of the greastest OSAS chapters written! I love this chapter and I love the KJV's tanslation of verse 1!
Two facts stated in verse 1;
a) No condemnation for those in Christ
b) those in Christ walk after the Spirit of Christ
You say the Spirit told you the line belongs there and yet the Spirit has not led you into understanding what it means!
Praise Him! :jesus:
What I find so fasinating about your insistence that the KJV translation is correct in Romans 8:1, is that you think that this second line "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" makes a case for your erronious pov that faith alone is heresy!
Romans 8 is one of the greastest OSAS chapters written! I love this chapter and I love the KJV's tanslation of verse 1!
Two facts stated in verse 1;
a) No condemnation for those in Christ
b) those in Christ walk after the Spirit of Christ
You say the Spirit told you the line belongs there and yet the Spirit has not led you into understanding what it means!
Praise Him! :jesus:
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I agree with you. The teaching is not under discussion. We all agree with the teaching. Whether or not the last half of the verse is included in the first verse of Romans 8 is moot. The teaching will still be there in the rest of Romans 8 and in other parts of the Bible. But that is not what is under discussion.steaver said:
The subject is one that is outside of Bible doctrine, outside of what can be found within the pages of the Bible. It is textual criticism. Even an unsaved person can be a textual critic; that is examine copies of the NT. Jews do it. Archeologists of various stripes and colors for different reasons do it. Like archeology it is a science. To compare and contrast manuscripts and ancient documents has nothing to do with Biblical doctrine.
Thus for someone to say: "The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that the last half of Romans 8 is in the original MSS," is a false statement. The Holy Spirit works within the realm of the Word of God, not outside of it. He does not give the answers to our Math questions, our physics questions and does not reveal to us the answers posed in archeology.
If the above quoted statement is true, then the inference is that half the board members that believe the opposite are without the Spirit of God and are unsaved. That is not only insulting but against the rules.
I agree with you brother, but all here do not agree with the teaching (HP)
But why does HP feel so strongly that the verse should say "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" ?
HP thinks this supports his view that one must make an effort to walk after the SPirit less he find himself condemned. HP sees this verse as being in Christ saves, but failure to walk after the SPirit will cast you out of Christ.
When it really is declaring an attribute of those in Christ, as the rest of the chapter reveals, even without the latter part of verse 1.
:godisgood:
I believe it comes from a strong conviction that the KJV is the correct translation over and above all other translations. He is entitled to his opinion, but the implication, when stated the way that it is stated is that all others who do not agree are without the Spirit of God.steaver said:
I have strong convictions regarding translations as well. But I arrived at my conclusions through much study. Now I prayed for guidance while I studied, but I do not claim any revelation from the Holy Spirit that my conclusions are given me from God.
:godisgood:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
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HP:Tell us Steaver, are you telling us that the Holy Spirit did not guide you in your studies? If He did, how did He guide you? How could you be certain it was Him if in fact you felt any guidance? Who on this list has claimed the guidance they received was apart from study? You act as if though you alone have studied Who on this list has claimed any ‘revelation?’ Not that it is such a bad term, just that I know of anyone besides yourself that used the term.
Again, did the Holy Spirit guide you in your conclusions or not, and if so what did He tell or show you and how?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Agree with what? His post adds nothing to this debate that I can see nor does it establish anything of substance. It leaves the reader with far more questions than answers.
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Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Steaver doesn't claim such things as "all knowledge" or "the Spirit bearing witness" to the exclusion of Spirit doesn't bear witness to others, hence others are not saved. He is not playing the part of God, as you come across.
He simply stated his conviction:
"I have strong convictions regarding translations as well. But I arrived at my conclusions through much study. Now I prayed for guidance while I studied,"
If you would do the same this discussion would be over. We all should come to our own conclusions through our own personal studies always praying that the Holy Spirit would give us guidance.
But when you come along, taking Scripture like Romans 8:16 out of context, and claim that the Holy Spirit bore witness with your spirit that Romans 8:1 as it is written in the KJV is the correct rendering, then you have called all others that disagree with you without the Spirit of God or unsaved. I wish you could see that.
Steaver has not done that. What you have done is both insulting and against the rules.
When will you stop?
I do not know.
I pray when I study, but I cannot say the Holy Spirit has declared my convictions perfect on this subject. I heard no voice. I am human, I am commanded to study. I know I have a judgment to face so I try to stay humble about such things extrabiblical.
I'll tell you this much. I once despised all other versions except the KJV. I even found myself passing judgment on those who just didn't understand what was so obvious to me. Could these people even know anything about God if they could not see that the KJV is the only perfect translation?? In fact I even quit a church because the new pastor used an NIV. I didn't even give him a chance.
I have since repented. I personally like and use the KJV only. I find it easier to harmonize scripture with scripture. However, I know godly men who use only the NIV and these men understand more about scripture than I do.
All devoted students of the Word should always refer to the Greek and Hebrew no matter what version they are using as well as considering teachers who have come before us.
There are two songs by the Gaithers that helped me come out of my prejudice on this matter, one titled "Songs that answer Questions". I highly recommend it for all students who get caught up in any form of legalism. (From the CD "Lovin God & Lovin Each Other") The title song is the second. I play them often that I may remember what should be the church's priorities.
:jesus:
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What is this notion of ‘extra biblical?’ We are not speaking of an interpretation or some idea foreign to the Word of God, but rather we are speaking of the Word of God itself. There is a clear distinction between staying humble and staying ignorant as to what God’s Word states. Are we as believers left in ignorance, guessing as to what God’s Word states, (anyones interpretation flys,) or is what is stated even in actuality God’s intended words? Is God unable to testify to our hearts truth concerning that which He wrote? If so, we are nothing more than the blind leading the blind. Speaking of ‘extra biblical.’ In such a manner as you seem to indicate, everything understood is ‘extra biblical’, having no guide to lead you to truth other than just ‘extra biblical’ human reasoning and study outside of Scripture or the aide of the Holy Spirit to guide and enlighten.
I am indeed curious. What do you see the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believers to consist of? Why do you limit the work of the Holy Spirit, denying Him the ability or means to show your heart the truth of His very Word? Again, we are speaking not of some ‘extra biblical’ truth, but simply of the actual intended Words of God themselves. How can one have faith that any or all translations are not the mere work of man apart from the Holy Spirit revealing that indeed at least some are in agreement to His very Words to man?
Is the Holy Spirit divided? Can He say and not say different things at the same time in the same sense? Is Scripture the Words of God or not? Who has any right apart from the guidance and help of the Holy Spirit to translate the first word of Holy Writ? Is Scripture first and foremost a spiritual book that must be spiritually discerned or is it merely another book written by man left to man alone to translate as one so desires via human effort and reasoning, i.e., by 'extra biblical' means?
There is nothing in the Holy Scriptures that states there will one day be English translations and there will be a KJV that is right and any others will be wrong. We can only come to these kind of conclusions from extra biblical sources. We study the history, wiegh the evidences, and make a decision.
Maybe God wants you to use the KJV and wants someone else to use something else. I don't find any evidence that God would personally tell someone that one translation is correct and another is wrong.
Personally I do not like the NIV. I used it for two years and then changed to the KJV. But I also know this, the NIV is the most sold version in the USA and even if you believe it's founders had evil motives God is still using it for salvation and His word is being preached and His people are learning His ways.
Let me ask you a question brother. Have these mulitiple versions set back the gospel or have they increased the gospel?
If it is not against us, it is for us. And Even if someone may have intended it for evil (not sure they really did) but if they did, God has overcome their intent and His word marches forward.
I once believed as you do HP. I once would have said, "I studied and prayed and the Holy Spirit showed me the KJV is the perfect one". But I realize now that I cannot say such a thing. But I said that to somehow justify my conclusions as righteous and others as ignorant.
I find problems in the NIV that bother me. I have found nothing in the KJV that bothers me. But That is from my studies and not from the Holy Spirit.
Sorry HP. I don't believe the Holy Spirit has told you the KJV is correct and the others are wrong. I believe you researched it out and prayed and asked for guidance from the Holy Spirit, But I believe you have come to your own personal convictions apart from Him flat out telling you. I believe He gave us a choice. Thinking it is from Him may help your own personal satisfaction, but I don't believe He actually told you the KJV is right. He may have led you to use it for your own studies knowing it might help you in some different way than say someone else who needs to read an NIV at the moment, and He may have led another to use something different. God's Word marches forward in many fashions!
:jesus:
Originally Posted by DHK
HP,
Here is something for you to think about.
From what you have written you believe that the KJV is "the inspired Word of God," correct?
Is then the corollary of that true: that the modern versions are not inspired?
For example, is the NIV, translated from the Critical Text, the "inspired" Word of God?
Here is what you just finished saying:
"HP: What is this notion of ‘extra biblical?’ We are not speaking of an interpretation or some idea foreign to the Word of God, but rather we are speaking of the Word of God itself. There is a clear distinction between staying humble and staying ignorant as to what God’s Word states. Are we as believers left in ignorance, guessing as to what God’s Word states,"
DHK: In the light of your above statement, you can surely give an answer to the Bibles that other nations use. Or are you simply so very narrow-minded and prejudiced that you have the attitude: "Let the rest of the world go to Hell!"
HP,
Here is something for you to think about.
From what you have written you believe that the KJV is "the inspired Word of God," correct?
Is then the corollary of that true: that the modern versions are not inspired?
For example, is the NIV, translated from the Critical Text, the "inspired" Word of God?
HP, this is the third time that I have posted this. What is your problem? Why are you so reluctant to give an answer to it?
Here is what you just finished saying:
"HP: What is this notion of ‘extra biblical?’ We are not speaking of an interpretation or some idea foreign to the Word of God, but rather we are speaking of the Word of God itself. There is a clear distinction between staying humble and staying ignorant as to what God’s Word states. Are we as believers left in ignorance, guessing as to what God’s Word states,"
DHK: In the light of your above statement, you can surely give an answer to the Bibles that other nations use. Or are you simply so very narrow-minded and prejudiced that you have the attitude: "Let the rest of the world go to Hell!"
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Here's the thing HP. The verse in question that caused this thread, whether the latter be there or not there, does not hinder nor change the message of the chapter or the bible one bit. So why did you choose this verse to claim the Spirit told you it must be there? I could see a debate if it was something that changed the message, but this deleted sentence does not change anything, so why the emphasis?
:jesus:
tamborine lady
Active Member
steaver said:
The deleted sentence changes things if you look at what the verse says. If it was only the first part of the verse, and we leave out the second part; "Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" then that says that no matter what we do if we are saved, then we are still O.K. no matter if we kill or lie or anything else, we are still O.K.,but when the last half is added, then there is a different meaning, " who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Suddenly we see that our walk is important also. How we conduct ourselve. We have a responsibility to walk after the spirit, so that we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5-16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
There is another reason I believe the second half belongs there. The KJV always shows in italics any words that were not in the origional text. The second half of the verse os not italics, so it was in the manuscript they were using.
Can anyone see that?
God bless,
Tam
Yes, it was in the manuscript they were using. Most modern versions are translated from an older manuscript that doesn't have the last half of the verse, and therein lies the debate.tamborine lady said:
For the record I happen to agree with you as far as doctrine is concerned, and even the inclusion of the verse. The doctrine can be found elsewhere even if the verse was not included, so that is not a problem.
Here is the problem. It is not doctrinal. It is one of heresy or of personal attack. It boils down to this: "God told (possibly in an audible voice) that the last half of Romans 8:1 is in the text." I have that witness from God. "If you don't believe as I do, you don't have the Spirit of God, are unsaved, and on your way to Hell."
Now HP didn't say that in so many words. But all of that was inferred in what he did say. All who disagree with him don't have the Spirit of God and therefore are unsaved, because the Spirit of God bore witness with his spirit that he has the truth. The Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic. There is only one truth. And he claims to have it. Therefore all that disagree with him do not have the Spirit of truth and are unsaved. How insulting is this.
If he would just state his opinion, as you have, there would be no problem and the discussion would end. But anyone who would infer that more than half the posters on this board are unsaved is way out of line.
Are you sure that is your stand? I thought you believed one is saved by grace through faith ALONE apart from any good or bad walking IN the spirit?
Actually the second part of the verse only describes one who is IN CHrist Jesus. One who is in Christ Jesus walks AFTER the Spirit because he has the Spirit indwellment guiding him.
Now here you have an instruction for avoiding fulfilling the flesh and that is to walk IN the Spirit. Unsaved people CANNOT walk IN or AFTER the Spirit. Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Therefore the second part of verse 1 is an attribute of one who is IN Christ Jesus. One who is IN Christ Jesus walks AFTER the Spirit. It is not saying one must be IN Christ AND walk/perfect obedience his way into heaven.
:jesus: