Strong Drink -The Baptist Truth

[Baptist Believer]

I Thess 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

That simply means to abstain from evil every time it appears, not abstain from anything that someone else might think is evil.

If you doubt that interpretation, think of our model for the Christian life, Jesus Himself... He purposely violated the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees on numerous occasions. Healing on the sabbath, touching the leper, etc.

 

[Jeremiah Hart]

That simply means to abstain from evil every time it appears, not abstain from anything that someone else might think is evil.

If you doubt that interpretation, think of our model for the Christian life, Jesus Himself... He purposely violated the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees on numerous occasions. Healing on the sabbath, touching the leper, etc.

I am not saying to do or not do something because someone else thinks you should or shouldn't. If I lived my life like that, I would be a mess. It all comes back to the Bible. Evil is not what someone thinks, it is what the Law says it is. Read the first 7 chapters of Romans and you can see that that is true.
So, that is why I quoted the Bible when I made my first post. This is not my opinion, it is the Bible. If you can drink white wine--go ahead--you will answer to God for that, not I.

And BTW, there are a lot of stuff I need to work on myself with, because I am a sinner just like everyone else. So, I am not posting this with a "I am better than you" attitude.

Just reminder what the Bible definition of sin is James 4:17 and in order to KNOW something we have to get our knowledge from the Bible, or we will be in trouble.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I am not saying to do or not do something because someone else thinks you should or shouldn't. If I lived my life like that, I would be a mess.

You're right, but a lot of people do live that way.

It all comes back to the Bible. Evil is not what someone thinks, it is what the Law says it is. Read the first 7 chapters of Romans and you can see that that is true.

I agree.

So, that is why I quoted the Bible when I made my first post. This is not my opinion, it is the Bible.

Yes, but you quoted a verse out of context, declared it "DOCTRINE" and added your humorous opinion that one "you can drink it as long as you don't look." Your opinion is not the Bible and verses wrested out-of-context and misinterpreted are not doctrine.

If you can drink white wine--go ahead--you will answer to God for that, not I.

I said nothing about white wine. That was someone else.

And BTW, there are a lot of stuff I need to work on myself with, because I am a sinner just like everyone else. So, I am not posting this with a "I am better than you" attitude.

I didn't get that impression. You did not seem holier-than-thou at all.

Just reminder what the Bible definition of sin is James 4:17 and in order to KNOW something we have to get our knowledge from the Bible, or we will be in trouble.

Yes, that's why I can't go along with those who claim that wine is inherently evil, Jesus didn't make or drink wine, and Christians should not ever partake of wine. That's not biblical. That opinion is the historical by-product of the 19th-century prohibition movement in the United States.

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

I am back over 1000 posts again...

I am not as smart as many on here in regards to the Bible. I lean towards the more conservative side saying to stay away from all alcohol all the time. However, I also admit I could be wrong and I need several more years of study and knowledge IMO to be able to form a 100% answer and even then my answer could change.

However, if you go back to a very basic and simple way to make decisions in life you can get a sheet a paper and draw a big line in the middle of it and label one side "pros" and the other side "cons". I think the "cons" side would always be the winner of the topic of alcohol to either drink it or not.

On another note I am always being called a hyporcrite on this topic because I support, watch, and even attend many sporting events that cater to alcohol immensely not to mention the cheerleaders. I have learned to pretty much block out the music, cussing, alcohol adverts, and cheerleaders at ball games. Maybe I am a hypocrite and should quit watching and supporting sports because of all of the bad things going on?

Sorry for rambling on and getting a bit off topic...

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I was reading through my Works of Josephus this morning and came across the following information which I found to be quite enlightening:

Antiquities of the Jews 2:66-67 66 for he let him know that God bestows the fruit of the vine upon men for good; which wine is poured out to him, and is the pledge of fidelity and mutual confidence among men; and puts an end to their quarrels, takes away passion and grief out of the minds of them that use it, and makes them cheerful. 67 ``You say that you squeezed this wine from three clusters of grapes with your hands, and that the king received it: know, therefore, that this vision is for your good, and foretells a release from your present distress within the same number of days as the branches had where you gather your grapes in your sleep.

This clearly shows that the freshly squeezed grape juice is that which makes the heart glad.

Antiquities of the Jews 3:234-235 234 for oil is also brought by those who sacrifice; for a bull the half of a hin, and for a ram the third part of the same measure, and one quarter of it for a lamb. This hin is an ancient Hebrew measure, and is equivalent to two Athenian choas (or congiuses). They bring the same quantity of oil which they do of wine, and they pour the wine around the altar; 235 but if anyone does not offer a complete sacrifice of animals, but brings fine flour only for a vow, he throws a handful upon the altar as its firstfruits, while the priests take the rest for their food, either boiled or mingled with oil, but made into cakes of bread. But whatever it be that a priest himself offers, it must of necessity be all burnt.

Here is the drink offering given to the priests, not drank, but poured out around the altar.

Antiquities of the Jews 3:279-280 279 And on this account it is that those who wear the sacerdotal garments are without spot, and eminent for their purity and sobriety: nor are they permitted to drink wine so long as they wear those garments. {b} Moreover, they offer sacrifices that are entire, and have no defect whatever. 280 And truly Moses gave them all these precepts, being such as were observed during his own lifetime; but though he lived now in the wilderness, yet did he make provision how they might observe the same laws when they should have taken the land of Canaan.

Are we as Christians not kings and priests unto Christ? Have we not put on His Righteousness? If we are His, we are in His service and not to partake of any wine lest we forget the law and pervert righteous judgment.

The Jewish War 7:295-297 295 As for the stores laid up within this fortress, it was still more wonderful on account of its splendour and long continuance; 296 for here was laid up grain in large quantities, and such as would subsist men for a long time; here was also wine and oil in abundance, with all kinds of vegetables and dates heaped up together; 297 all which Eleazar found there when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and fully ripe, and no way inferior to such fruits recently harvested, although they were little short of a hundred years {a} from the storage of these provisions [by Herod], till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not rotted all that while;

 

[EdSutton]

Are "Antiquities" and "The Jewish War" now the 67th and 68th books of 'Protestant' Scripture?

Boy, that's news to me!

Maybe we can now place "The Gospel of Judas" and "The Davinci Code" as nos. 69 and 70, adding any other new books as "modern scholarship" demands, hunh?

Ed

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Ed,

No, they are not editions of the Bible, but History revealed during that period sheds light on what the Word of God was saying wine that was accepted consisted of. History proves that 'wine that maketh the heart glad' was nothing but grape juice freshly squeezed from the clusters.

 

[webdog]

This clearly shows that the freshly squeezed grape juice is that which makes the heart glad.

That showed no such thing. It stated that the wine (wine is ALWAYS alcoholic) was made from three clusters of grapes. If you squeeze any grape, it IMMEDIATELY begins to ferment, as the sugar and yeast interact.

and puts an end to their quarrels, takes away passion and grief out of the minds of them that use it, and makes them cheerful.

Yep, sure sounds like the side affects of drinking a freshly squeezed glass of grape juice!

 

[dan e.]

Yep, sure sounds like the side affects of drinking a freshly squeezed glass of grape juice!

:laugh: This discussion is so silly. That comment made me laugh webdog.

 

[Jeremiah Hart]

You're right, but a lot of people do live that way.

I said nothing about white wine. That was someone else.

Sorry, that was the poster before.

And the comment about not looking but going ahead a drinking, that is not belief at all, just a humorious remark, like you said. Was just livening up the mood.:thumbs:

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Wine is always alcoholic nowadays, but it was not so 4,000 years before Christ.

Antiquities of the Jews 2:64-67 64 He therefore said, that in his sleep he saw three clusters of grapes hanging upon three branches of a vine, large already, and ripe for gathering; and that he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand; and when he had strained the wine, he gave it to the king to drink, and that he received it from him with a pleasant countenance. 65 This, he said, was what he saw; and he desired Joseph, that if he had any portion of understanding in such matters, he would tell him what this vision foretold: who bade him be of good cheer, and expect to be loosed from his bonds in three days' time, because the king desired his service, and was about to restore him to it again; 66 for he let him know that God bestows the fruit of the vine upon men for good; which wine is poured out to him, and is the pledge of fidelity and mutual confidence among men; and puts an end to their quarrels, takes away passion and grief out of the minds of them that use it, and makes them cheerful. 67 ``You say that you squeezed this wine from three clusters of grapes with your hands, and that the king received it: know, therefore, that this vision is for your good, and foretells a release from your present distress within the same number of days as the branches had where you gather your grapes in your sleep.

Josephus was giving an account of what we read in the Book of Genesis when Joseph told the dream where wine was squeezed directly from the cluster into the Pharaoh's cup.

History also records artifacts unearthed that have etchings of one squeezing the wine directly from a cluster into a cup for immediate consumption.

I am sorry you disagree with historical writings and with the Word of God as to that which 'maketh the heart glad'.

 

[webdog]

he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand; and when he had strained the wine, he gave it to the king to drink, and that he received it from him with a pleasant countenance.

Josephus was giving an account of what we read in the Book of Genesis when Joseph told the dream where wine was squeezed directly from the cluster into the Pharaoh's cup.

History also records artifacts unearthed that have etchings of one squeezing the wine directly from a cluster into a cup for immediate consumption.

Only one problem...it wasn't consumed directly after it was squeezed...

I see:
A. grapes squeezed into the kings cup
B. cup given to whomever to "strain"
C. at some point the cup with WINE was given back to the king to drink.

I am sorry you disagree with historical writings and with the Word of God as to that which 'maketh the heart glad'.

This is getting real lame. I'm disagreeing with YOU...not the Word of God. I know what Scripture means by "maketh the heart glad". I'm disagreeing with YOUR interpretation of that. Please stop with the "if you disagree with me, you disagree with God" attitude.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

You are disagreeing with the Word of God. Isaiah clearly shows the juice of the grape is called wine while it is still in the cluster.

Isaiah 65:8 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing [is] in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

The new wine, that which is sweet and unfermented is found in the cluster. Not made after it is squeezed and strained. The straining described was just to get stems or skins out of the wine.

 

[dan e.]

This is getting real lame. I'm disagreeing with YOU...not the Word of God. I know what Scripture means by "maketh the heart glad". I'm disagreeing with YOUR interpretation of that. Please stop with the "if you disagree with me, you disagree with God" attitude.

THANK YOU! I didn't think anybody was ever going to say it!!! :applause:

 

[webdog]

You are disagreeing with the Word of God. Isaiah clearly shows the juice of the grape is called wine while it is still in the cluster.


The new wine, that which is sweet and unfermented is found in the cluster. Not made after it is squeezed and strained. The straining described was just to get stems or skins out of the wine.

BLASHPHEMY!! You are not...repeat NOT...the Word of God!!! I'm disagreeing with YOU!!

The "new wine" on the cluster were grapes that were already FERMENTING because they were past the harvest point. Animals and insects get drunk off this same "new wine" if they eat the grapes. The juice of the grape referring to "new wine" was less alcoholic wine than the "good" wine that was more alcoholic. This is FACT.

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

THANK YOU! I didn't think anybody was ever going to say it!!! :applause:

Thus saith Brandon: I second that :laugh:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

webdog,

It is not HBSMN you disagree with, it is the Word of God. That new wine that is spoken of is not the 'yayin' that can be translated 'fermented or non-fermented', but it is the Hebrew word 'tiyrowsh' which is always translated as 'fresh, non-fermented wine'.

HBSMN has shown that fresh wine is indeed in the grape cluster.

 

[webdog]

 

[webdog]

webdog,

It is not HBSMN you disagree with, it is the Word of God.

Wouldn't this make you an idolater for equating HBSMN with the Word of God? Just wondering...

HBSMN has shown that fresh wine is indeed in the grape cluster.

"fresh wine" is an oxymoron, as wine never goes bad. There alcoholic and less alcoholic wine. Even "non alcoholic" wine in the stores today has a trace of alcohol.'s

 

[standingfirminChrist]

That is about the most ridiculous accusation you have made to date, webdog.

Because what HBSMN said lined up with the Word of God and I agree with the Word of God, you accuse me of being an idolator?

You sir, need to study the Word of God with the mind of Christ rather than presuppositions that all wine is alcoholic as you posted in an earlier post.

Read the Word of God and Historical records to see what wine was back 2,000 to 6,000 years ago, not the books written by modern man.

Josephus was a famous historian who apparently gave himself to seeking out the truth of what happened during those days of Pharaoh's and kings.

The account posted by HBSMN, and Scripture clearly show that non-alcoholic wine was served and drank, and preferred above the alcoholic wine.