Strong Drink -The Baptist Truth

[Baptist Believer]

Solomon often jumped the track in many of his proverbs.

I think it is more likely that his proverbs were collected and assembled over a long period of time. Yet, there is a logic and context in the way that most sections are arranged. And Proverbs 23 has a clear line of reasoning all the way through it, starting in verse 1.

Even if he did not, as I said, it is clear he was teaching total abstinence in order not to be led to the woes that befall those who drink.

Not if you read it in context.

No cherry-picking necessary. The teaching of abstinence is still there.

Nope. Not in the context of Proverbs 23, the actions of Jesus, or the rest of scripture.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The actions of Jesus? Jesus never made, drank, or condoned the drinking of alcoholic beverage.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

To accuse the Lord of drinking or producing alcoholic wine, that which He knew causes many to stumble and sends many to hell, is blasphemous.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Since the Word of God is clearly different than what you are advocating...

Your position is "clear" only to those who believe the way you do.

I can see that your lack of skill in biblical interpretation that you present does not help your position at all.

Then where have I erred? Demanding that scripture be interpreted in context instead of select out-of-context verses? Establishing my interpretation of scripture based on the actions of Jesus that demonstrate He was not opposed to the moderate consumption of alcohol beverages?

Listen, we've been round and round on this issue. Both positions have been laid out clearly.

One of the positions spends much time talking about non-alcoholic "wine", a proverb removed from its context, and equates moderate consumption with wanton drunkeness. Passages that don't fit the pattern are alleged to be talking about "non-alcoholic wine" and made non-sensical. (Apparently, deacons are not to be addicted to much grape juice. But why would the love of grape juice make someone unfit? Or is the passage actually talking about alcoholic wine? Then the passage clearly demonstrates that the problem is the addiction to large quantities of wine instead of the position of abstinance.)

The other position discussions the actions of Jesus, points to Levitical Law, relies on the practices of Jewish tradition, and the admonitions of the New Testament epistles for support. Futhermore, it clearly provides a consistent view across the pages of scripture that alcoholic beverages are not forbidden, but rather a gift from God. And like many of God's gifts (food, sexual desire, freedom) it can easily be misused and cause great destruction.

Which view makes sense and doesn't distort the scripture?

 

[Baptist Believer]

The actions of Jesus? Jesus never made, drank, or condoned the drinking of alcoholic beverage.

John 2: The wedding at Cana is the obvious choice. If you want to deny scripture, that's your problem.

 

[Baptist Believer]

To accuse the Lord of drinking or producing alcoholic wine, that which He knew causes many to stumble and sends many to hell, is blasphemous.

Wine doesn't send people to hell. That's bad doctrine.

To ignore scripture is heretical.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

There are enough Scriptures to show Christ would not have drank, nor given alcohol to anyone.

To ignore scripture is heretical.

 

[Baptist Believer]

There are enough Scriptures to show Christ would not have drank...

He was falsely accused of being a drunkard... a charge that (in context) only makes sense if He drank alcoholic beverages.

...nor given alcohol to anyone.

John 2 clearly refutes your statement.

To ignore scripture is heretical.

Your own words condemn you.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Levitical law clearly shows the drink offering was poured out around the altar to the Lord, not drank by the priests.]

Apparently you do not study enough.

Go ahead and 'Eat, Drink, be Merry... you will stand before God for making His Son into one who sins by putting the bottle to another's lips.

 

[webdog]

Yet Josephus called it wine.
Perhaps the ancients had a more expansive definition of wine.

...or maybe fermentation begins immediately once the yeast from the grape (the white powdery substance) and sugar come into contact.

Science study for you: Go into a lab, squeeze some grapes into a cup to fill it and have the scientist tell you if there is any alcohol in the cup.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Levitical law clearly shows the drink offering was poured out around the altar to the Lord, not drank by the priests.

Wrong reference.

Deuteronomy 14:26 (KJV) "And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household..."

Apparently you do not study enough.

I made the mistake of assuming that you had kept up with the scripture referenced by those who have a different view. Apparently, I was wrong.

Go ahead and 'Eat, Drink, be Merry... you will stand before God for making His Son into one who sins by putting the bottle to another's lips.

I do not claim that Jesus sins. In fact, He is without sin. And not only that, He is my example in all things. I will not err by following His example. Furthermore, I am not at liberty to misrepresent Jesus to fit a contemporary American opinion. To knowingly do so is profoundly sinful.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

As I pointed out, the people who truly wanted to be found in God's will did not buy that wine and strong drink. Reference Deuteronomy 29:6

Deuteronomy 29:6 (KJV) Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I [am] the LORD your God.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

As I pointed out, the people who truly wanted to be found in God's will did not buy that wine and strong drink. Reference Deuteronomy 29:6

Also, if one does a careful examination of Scripture will show that only one place after the verse HBSMN posted condones strong drink. That is in Proverbs 31. Solomon said give strong drink to one who is ready to perish and wine to one with a heavy heart.

All other places, it is clearly forbidden.

 

[Jerome]

...or maybe fermentation begins immediately once the yeast from the grape (the white powdery substance) and sugar come into contact.

Science study for you: Go into a lab, squeeze some grapes into a cup to fill it and have the scientist tell you if there is any alcohol in the cup.

So freshly pressed grape juice is properly called wine?

 

[Baptist Believer]

As I pointed out, the people who truly wanted to be found in God's will did not buy that wine and strong drink. Reference Deuteronomy 29:6

You quoted, "Deuteronomy 29:6 (KJV) Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I [am] the LORD your God." to support your claim that those who "want to be found in God's will" do not drink wine or strong drink.

In context, Moses is recounting the wilderness journey of the Israelites before they reached the promised land. That does not negate, nor is even relevant to, what is taught in Deuteronomy 14.

Since you quote that verse, do you eat bread? Do you truly think those who "want to be found in God's will" do not eat bread? If I point out that Jesus ate bread (and gave it to His disciples!!), will you accuse me of blasphemy?

Please stop twisting the scripture in your attempt to try and win the debate. This discussion should not be about winning, but about understanding the will of God!

 

[Diggin in da Word]

This discussion should not be about winning, but about understanding the will of God!

So, why don't you understand?

 

[Baptist Believer]

So, why don't you understand?

I believe I do.

Your side has the bizarre arguments that postulate that the Holy Spirit is consumed like fuel or assert that bread and wine are not consumed by those who seek God.

Why do you still cling to those arguments when scripture and reason completely undermine them?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Scripture does not in any way undermine that belief that I hold that the Christian is to abstain from alcohol. Quite the contrary. It strengthens my stand.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Scripture does not in any way undermine that belief that I hold that the Christian is to abstain from alcohol. Quite the contrary. It strengthens my stand.

You have just made an assertion, but given no proof. Furthermore, you have continued using that sig* that makes an analogy between the Holy Spirit and gasoline that is ridiculous, demeaning to the Holy Spirit, and plainly erroneous.

Why should I take your assertions seriously?


*Just as a car will not operate properly for its owner if water is mixed with the gas, a Christian cannot function properly for God if he mixes alcohol with the Holy Spirit.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

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