Struggling with "divorced Pastor" issue!

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
If it applies per prior posts, stop living in adultery with his girlfriend*, and either be reconciled to his only wife** or live in celibacy.

*Whom the state regards as his wife.
**Whom the state regards as his ex-wife.

Wait a minute!!

Let’s revisit a comment that you made on September 23, 2003 07:46 PM:

If the associate pastor is divorced and remarried, and his "previous" marriage was the first marriage for both him and his wife, and she is not physically dead, but his church "accepts" him and his leadership and has apparently "forgiven" him, then that church either condones divorce and remarriage or has fallen for the false teaching nowhere stated in Scripture that God permits remarriage if the divorce was for adultery. Either way, it doesn't sound like a good church to attend, if true.

To borrow your phrase, you contention that remarried people should remain celibate is “nowhere stated in Scripture.” Until you can show us that this is specifically stated in Scripture, it is Unscriptural.

If you do not believe that someone (the Associate Pastor in this particular scenario) should divorce the second husband/wife, then the rules for marriage specifically stated by Paul in I Corinthians 7 absolutely apply to the new marriage. Note what Paul says in Verse 5.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

To GloryBound:

I have been pondering the last post you have made. As a fellow Believer, I would love to edify you in some way, so I thought I would make the following observations:

1. God bless you for the extreme love that is evident in your posts. I could not help but smile as you discussed your concern for your husband's spiritual growth. That really was a fantastic statement, and I almost shed a tear!!

2. As a husband myself, I can say that your concern is more than enough to negate the "dragging down" your husband is experiencing. Keep up the good work.

3. I have absolutely no doubt that you will find a church in which you can both grow spiritually and become active. Like I said before, read Proverbs 3:5-6, and trust in the Lord. If you really have a problem with the Associate Pastor's marital status, perhaps God is leading you away from that church. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

4. As I am a male, I really cannot offer insight into your current situation, and feel as though I would be rather haughty to imply otherwise. You might try asking several of the ladies on this list in an offline discussion for counsel/guidance/wisdom. I guarantee that they would be gracious in their replies. [showard93 is a wonderful Christian lady. donnA and dianetavegia would also be great sources for Godly advice.]

I will keep you and your husband in my prayers. As I previously stated, I know of several Bible-believing Baptist churches that stretch across Central Florida, so I know that God will lead you to the perfect church.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
If it applies per prior posts, stop living in adultery with his girlfriend*, and either be reconciled to his only wife** or live in celibacy.

*Whom the state regards as his wife.
**Whom the state regards as his ex-wife.

What if he divorced his first wife because of her fornication? </font>[/QUOTE]1. Although women today are less likely to be virgins when they marry, the relevant biblical custom would have determined her fornication on the wedding night. In our society, unconsummated unions are usually dissolved legally by annulment, not divorce.

2. We don't even have the binding betrothal custom Jesus referred to in the exception.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

You're kidding, right?

Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
If it applies per prior posts, stop living in adultery with his girlfriend*, and either be reconciled to his only wife** or live in celibacy.

*Whom the state regards as his wife.
**Whom the state regards as his ex-wife.

Wait a minute!!

Let’s revisit a comment that you made on September 23, 2003 07:46 PM:

If the associate pastor is divorced and remarried, and his "previous" marriage was the first marriage for both him and his wife, and she is not physically dead, but his church "accepts" him and his leadership and has apparently "forgiven" him, then that church either condones divorce and remarriage or has fallen for the false teaching nowhere stated in Scripture that God permits remarriage if the divorce was for adultery. Either way, it doesn't sound like a good church to attend, if true.

To borrow your phrase, you contention that remarried people should remain celibate is “nowhere stated in Scripture.” Until you can show us that this is specifically stated in Scripture, it is Unscriptural.

If you do not believe that someone (the Associate Pastor in this particular scenario) should divorce the second husband/wife, then the rules for marriage specifically stated by Paul in I Corinthians 7 absolutely apply to the new marriage. Note what Paul says in Verse 5. </font>[/QUOTE]I do believe that the associate pastor should repent of his sin of adultery (provided his first marriage was the first for both of them), and he must remain as though celibate unless he reconciles with his real wife--by the express words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who said that (given my parentheses above) if he divorced his wife and married another he is continuously committing adultery against her. The "rule" in 1 Cor. 7 doesn't apply where there is no marriage, and if as noted above, he is not married to the live-in girlfriend with whom he is constantly committing adultery against his real wife. Interestingly enough, if his current girlfriend never married before, she'd be free to get married to someone eligible if the pastor does the right thing, since she still isn't married now.

 

[GloryBound]

First let me thank you for your very kind and gentle words Baptist in Richmond. Your prayers are much needed. Let me share with you that someone tonight told us of two churches that believe as I do on the divorce issue and also on many other issues.


I shared all that you very nice gentlemen have said to me with my husband today. He is now willing to continue looking for another church. We are going to visit one of the churches mentioned to us tonight this Sunday. My husband is on vacation from his job this week.


I will admit to all of you, I got scared and allowed fear to overwhelm me when my husband started leaning toward the other church. When will I learn that I must be patient and wait for the Lord to set things in place. I feel ashamed that I even posted this here on the BB. All I can think of right now is, "Oh ye of little faith". He is still molding me and teaching me to trust Him with everything. He has been sooo good to me!!! How could I have doubted He would take care of all of this for me! Thank You and may the Lord bless each of you richly.


Love in Christ,
GloryBound

 

[Taufgesinnter]

I'm so glad this worked out for you!

(But keep in mind, God uses means, and relating the contents of this thread to your husband might have been God's means to changing your husband's mind.)

 

[Taufgesinnter]

Originally posted by Don:
Tauf, I suggest you re-look at "A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases"; or at least provide us which source for exegesis you're using that countermands this statement.

I'm not disputing that verse. There is simply no ground for remarriage (which is adultery).

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by timothy 1769:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
If it applies per prior posts, stop living in adultery with his girlfriend*, and either be reconciled to his only wife** or live in celibacy.

*Whom the state regards as his wife.
**Whom the state regards as his ex-wife.

What if he divorced his first wife because of her fornication? </font>[/QUOTE]1. Although women today are less likely to be virgins when they marry, the relevant biblical custom would have determined her fornication on the wedding night. In our society, unconsummated unions are usually dissolved legally by annulment, not divorce.

2. We don't even have the binding betrothal custom Jesus referred to in the exception. </font>[/QUOTE]Hmmm... all of this is extra-biblical, correct? I see no explicit (or even implicit) references to betrothal in the Matthew passage or even a hint that the fornication exception only applies to the time before consummation. Why not just take the passage at face value? I sincerely admire the stands conservative Anabaptists take regarding the Sermon on the Mount, headcoverings, and their general all around fidelity to the Holy Scriptures in their day to day living. But this stance on divorce has always puzzled me given Jesus's explicit statement in Matthew.

Here's the verse for reference:

Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

[ September 24, 2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: timothy 1769 ]

 

[timothy 1769]

Perhaps you believe the greek word for fornication (porneia) cannot indicate adultery? But it can:

1Corinthians 5:1
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

Clearly having sex with a married woman is adultery, but here it is called fornication (porneia).

And though not as clearly, I think this verse implies the same thing:

John 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
I do believe that the associate pastor should repent of his sin of adultery (provided his first marriage was the first for both of them), and he must remain as though celibate unless he reconciles with his real wife--by the express words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who said that (given my parentheses above) if he divorced his wife and married another he is continuously committing adultery against her.

Again, let me amplify my statement:
Show me the Scripture that specifically states that remarried people must remain celebate. You made a specific claim, now please provide the specific Scripture. Additionally, where did Jesus use the word "continuously?"

The "rule" in 1 Cor. 7 doesn't apply where there is no marriage, and if as noted above, he is not married to the live-in girlfriend with whom he is constantly committing adultery against his real wife. Interestingly enough, if his current girlfriend never married before, she'd be free to get married to someone eligible if the pastor does the right thing, since she still isn't married now.

Are you saying that they are NOT married? Again, please provide the specific Scripture to support your claim.

 

[gb93433]

I trust that you read the writings of a man who murdered someone--Moses. You read others by a man who cut off a man's ear--Peter. You read the writings of a pastor who mentored other pastors and started churches who persecuted others--Paul. You read the writings of a man who killed another man's wife just so he could have her because she was beautiful--David. You read about men who were arguing about who will be at the best position in heaven with Jesus--his disciples. All of them had one thing in common; God used them.

Now how does this divorced man you talk about stack up against the men God used as His leaders?

I find that the most anti-divorce people are those who have been through a divorce. They would not wish that on anybody.

Like they say, "If you find a perfect church, don't join it because you'll ruin it."

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:
I cannot believe what I am reading.
Although I wasn't there, you have presented the Pastor as being quite candid. I would dare imagine that the Congregation knows this as well. For whatever reason, the Associate Pastor is still there. Once again, I wasn't there, but most likely the Associate Pastor has asked for and received forgiveness, both from God and the Congretation. Remember: divorce is indeed a forgivable sin. Moreover, do you really think it is appropriate to start "investigating" something that is in the past? If you were a member of the Congregation, would you appreciate someone coming in and revisiting this issue?

If you honestly have a problem with the divorce, then this church is not for you. If you explain that to your husband that you really have an issue with this, I am sure that he will understand. God will lead you and your husband to a church.

My advice would be to make every attempt to refrain from potentially opening old wounds.

I don't know if any or all of this was directed at my comments but I have a direct painful experience related to the subject.

If you don't take extra care in these situations, you shouldn't be surprised when any weaknesses that contributed to the divorce (no matter where you lay ultimate blame) affect the current marriage under the pressures of ministry. Problems in the pastors home do impact the congregation.

I am not advising against the church at all. The pastor may have been a complete victim of someone who was so adept at disguising their true nature that he married them in complete ignorance. However, if the warning signs were there for the pastor, his discernment becomes a possible issue.

All uncertainties about him can be answered by biblically principles of "proving".

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
1. Clearly having sex with a married woman is adultery, but here it is called fornication (porneia).

2. John 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Not to really get involved, I think this warranted an answer.

1. Note that the passage indicts the man. He is the one who is part of the church. I don't see any indication that the woman was part of the church. So, it isn't as clear as you think.

2. This passage has no relevance. You don't think they were making a veiled insult toward Christ?

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Gunther:
1. Note that the passage indicts the man. He is the one who is part of the church. I don't see any indication that the woman was part of the church. So, it isn't as clear as you think.

I don't see her church membership having any relevance - having sex with a married woman is adultery, here referenced with the term porneia.

2. This passage has no relevance. You don't think they were making a veiled insult toward Christ?

Another possibility is that they are saying their actual and legal fathers are the same. If not, they would be the offspring of an act of adultery, here referenced by the term porneia.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Gunther:
Originally posted by timothy 1769:
1. Clearly having sex with a married woman is adultery, but here it is called fornication (porneia).

1. Note that the passage indicts the man. He is the one who is part of the church. I don't see any indication that the woman was part of the church. So, it isn't as clear as you think.

I wanted to ask you to clarify this point you make. Exactly what is the purpose of mentioning that there is no indication whether the woman was "part of the church?"

 

[Gunther]

My point was that the "sexual immorality" charge was leveled against HIM because he was in the church. The adultery was on the part of the woman, who was married. Timothy1769's point is moot.

 

[timothy 1769]

Gunther, I think your definition of adultery is not biblical.

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Matthew 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
Gunther, I think your definition of adultery is not biblical.

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Matthew 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

And I might add:

James 4:4, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God?"

John 8:3-11, "The scribes and the Pharisees ^brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they ^said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

 

[Pastor Sam]

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

 

[Pastor Sam]

Remember all sin is forgiven except divorce.