Study 2 Thessalonians 2:13

[David Lamb]

But there in lays the problem David, the calvinist views are based on what augustine said and which calvin carried forward. We know that augustine was influenced by those pagan philosophies and thus we see those same pagan philosophies in calvinism.

So when they wrote their confession they looked for scriptures that they thought supported those same philosophies. Calvin himself said that his understanding of scripture could be traced right back to augustine. Calvin references augustine over 70 times in his institutes.

Calvin stated, "Augustine is so much at one with me that, if I wished to write a confession of my faith, it would abundantly satisfy me to quote wholesale from his writings."
(Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.63)

So why did they append Scripture references after every statement, rather than quotes from Augustine, pagan philosophy or John Calvin? As I said before, you must have an intimate knowledge of the formulators of the confessions of faith to be able to say with such apparent certainty that they based their beliefs on pagan philosophy, the searched out Scriptures to support the beliefs.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What do you base your claim on Martin?

The Bible. I am not very interested in the church fathers, and have read next to nothing of Augustine, but I am interested in the Bible. And predestination and effectual (or 'limited' if you prefer) atonement is there in spades, particularly in John and Romans, but elsewhere as well (e.g. Matt. 11:25-27).
Therefore, if it is in the Bible, it cannot be pagan.

 

[Brightfame52]

When was the action of choosing performed?

From the beginning. See Genesis 1:1 and or From before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

 

[canadyjd]

Here is a standard Calvinist claim, every tenet of Calvinism is backed up with scripture…..

….. I can go on and on…..

And you do…. Go on and on and on and on.

You are the one that proudly admitted you change the Words of scripture to fit your understanding.

As I stated before, I change my understanding to fit the Words of scripture.

Anyone with an IQ above room temp will understand what you are doing is wrong.

Your continuous outbursts at “Calvinism” is an attempt to justify a deeply flawed approach to understanding scripture.

Your arrogance and pride is evident for all to see.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

So why did they append Scripture references after every statement, rather than quotes from Augustine, pagan philosophy or John Calvin? As I said before, you must have an intimate knowledge of the formulators of the confessions of faith to be able to say with such apparent certainty that they based their beliefs on pagan philosophy, the searched out Scriptures to support the beliefs.

When they start with a belief based on pagan philosophy, that augustine and later calvin brought into the church, they will look for verses that they think support those beliefs even when they have to twist or take them out of context to do so.

When you start from a false premise as the cults do then you will find verses that you think support that position.

 

[Silverhair]

The Bible. I am not very interested in the church fathers, and have read next to nothing of Augustine, but I am interested in the Bible. And predestination and effectual (or 'limited' if you prefer) atonement is there in spades, particularly in John and Romans, but elsewhere as well (e.g. Matt. 11:25-27).
Therefore, if it is in the Bible, it cannot be pagan.

Then you should spend some time learning what the ECF's thought as they were the closest to the apostles.

You say predestination and effectual (or 'limited' if you prefer) atonement is there in spades but that is only because you have read it into the text.

The next two verses show the error of your thinking.
Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

But you will believe what you do and I will believe what I do and so we will continue to disagree.

 

[Brightfame52]

Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Those verses are limited to the babes and excludes the wise and prudent as it reads in the verse b4 Matt 11 25 27

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So verses 28-29 are not to them

 

[Silverhair]

Those verses are limited to the babes and excludes the wise and prudent as it reads in the verse b4 Matt 11 25 27

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So verses 28-29 are not to them

The call is to all those that are "weary and burdened". Those that think they are to wise will reject the truth but those that humble themselves will receive the truth.

God would never offer a call to which He knows no one can possibly respond. Such a Call on His part would be insincere, actually a lie and we know that God cannot lie.

BF you are working way to hard to deny the truths of scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Then you should spend some time learning what the ECF's thought as they were the closest to the apostles.

I really don't think that matters. The apostasy was well under way even before the apostles died (Acts 20:29; Jude 4 etc.)

You say predestination and effectual (or 'limited' if you prefer) atonement is there in spades but that is only because you have read it into the text.

The next two verses show the error of your thinking.
Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

But you will believe what you do and I will believe what I do and so we will continue to disagree.

We certainly will until you learn that one text doesn't cancel out another, but the two must be taken together. We are to preach and call upon all people (and certainly many folk today are weary and burdened) to come to Christ, but we also need to be praying that God will graciously open their hearts to receive our message for otherwise they will never come.

 

[Brightfame52]

The call is to all those that are "weary and burdened".

Thats the babes new borns, spiritual babes

 

[Silverhair]

I really don't think that matters. The apostasy was well under way even before the apostles died (Acts 20:29; Jude 4 etc.)

We certainly will until you learn that one text doesn't cancel out another, but the two must be taken together. We are to preach and call upon all people (and certainly many folk today are weary and burdened) to come to Christ, but we also need to be praying that God will graciously open their hearts to receive our message for otherwise they will never come.

God is gracious to all people that is why those that reject the call will be responsible for the choice they made.

That is a point that those the fallow calvinism do not seem able to grasp.

Do you think the ECF's only spoke on the apostasy? And what does that have to do with predestination and the atonement?

 

[Silverhair]

Thats the babes new borns, spiritual babes

You really do have a strange view of the word of God BF.

 

[Van]

Here is scripture proof Rom 3:11

Yes, none seek God when sinning. Yes many seek the narrow door when they are not sinning.

 

[Van]

From the beginning. See Genesis 1:1 and or From before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

Genesis 1:1 does not say in my translation, from the beginning. And Ephesians 1:4 does not say from the beginning. So more diversion, more gibberish, more nonsense from the deceivers.

 

[Van]

And you do…. Go on and on and on and on.

You are the one that proudly admitted you change the Words of scripture to fit your understanding.

As I stated before, I change my understanding to fit the Words of scripture.

Anyone with an IQ above room temp will understand what you are doing is wrong.

Your continuous outbursts at “Calvinism” is an attempt to justify a deeply flawed approach to understanding scripture.

Your arrogance and pride is evident for all to see.

Peace to you

All these naysayers have are false claims, rewriting scripture from none seek after God to none ever seek after God.

 

[canadyjd]

All these naysayers have are false claims, rewriting scripture from none seek after God to none ever seek after God.

The passage says, “none seek after God”. The only one adding words to the verse is YOU by adding “while sinning”

What a waste of cyber space

Peace to you

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1830 GMT 1230 pm EST / 0930 am PST

 

[Martin Marprelate]

All these naysayers have are false claims, rewriting scripture from none seek after God to none ever seek after God.

My Greek NT says that the verses are in the Present Tense, which usually signifies continuity:
'As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
There is no one who understands;
There is no one who is searching for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
There is no one who does what is right;
There is not even one.........."
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.'

If people were searching for God, they would undoubtedly find Him (Luke 11:9-13).

 

[Van]

The passage says, “none seek after God”. The only one adding words to the verse is YOU by adding “while sinning”

What a waste of cyber space

Peace to you

These false teachers rewrite none seek God to none ever seek God and then claim those pointing out that is a rewrite are rewriting the verse. Yes I know they are pretending to be idiots but it bothers me that folks who claim to be Christians would be so deceitful.

None seek after God could mean none seek after God at any time, or all the time or some of the time. Since many seek after the narrow door, the only meaning possible is "all the time" or when sinning because some of the time they do seek God.

 

[Van]

My Greek NT says that the verses are in the Present Tense, which usually signifies continuity:
'As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
There is no one who understands;
There is no one who is searching for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
There is no one who does what is right;
There is not even one.........."
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.'

If people were searching for God, they would undoubtedly find Him (Luke 11:9-13).

First, when continuity is meant, the perfect tense is used.

Second, Luke 13:24 says many seek God and do not find him, such as those seeking God by works rather than faith. Romans 9.

So your "undoubtedly" find Him is unbiblical nonsense.

You seem to be advocating a rewrite of Romans 3:11 creating conflict in scripture to support your man-made doctrine. Not cool