Submission...to what, and "everything"? (Eph. 5:24)

[thegospelgeek]

You need to look up the definition of "submission."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submit
Main Entry: sub·mit
Pronunciation: \səb-ˈmit\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): sub·mit·ted; sub·mit·ting
Etymology: Middle English submitten, from Latin submittere to lower, submit, from sub- + mittere to send
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 a : to yield to governance or authority b : to subject to a condition, treatment, or operation <the metal was submitted to analysis>
2 : to present or propose to another for review, consideration, or decision; also : to deliver formally <submitted my resignation>
3 : to put forward as an opinion or contention <we submit that the charge is not proved>
intransitive verb
1 a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of another : surrender b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something <had to submit to surgery>
2 : to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another

synonyms see yield :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Scarlett O.]

You need to look up the definition of "submission."

To "confront" him is anything but submission.

So according to you, a wife has to submit - in silence and without argument - whether her husband loves her or not.

So, if as menageriekeeper stated - hypothetically - a husband comes home in a really foul temperament because his boss treats him like dog.

Hypothetically, he comes in and smells meatloaf. He likes meatloaf. But he had it for lunch at the diner that day and it wasn't good. This meat was little bad and it made him a little sick.

He comes in - says nothing to her. He is ticked off. She speaks. He doesn't reply. She says, "I've got supper ready - it's meatloaf."

He says, taking his daily frustrations out on her, "I'm not eating that crap. Fix me something else and fix it now!" He doesn't kiss her nor acknowledge her work.

According to the Martha Peace, she is not even allowed to get angry or frustrated.

According to you, she is to fix him something else and fix it now and she is not allowed to say one word about HIS ridiculous behavior.

You know, most days, I'm depressed because I never married. I did everything else. Literally. I made name for myself and had a brilliant carreer. I pushed certain men aside years because I thought I could have done better. I see now that they were the better and I was too arrogant. I just retired two months ago. I have professional accolades out the window and am entering into another career that is promises to be lucrative. However, over the past two months, just about all I can think of is "so what". What have I really accomplished?

But, today, reading your posts about women submitting to anything - silently and without opinion, whether her husband treats her with respect or not.....

....I won't say that I'm glad I'm single. But I am content .... at least today.

 

[Gina B]

You need to look up the definition of "submission."

To "confront" him is anything but submission.

Why is that a form of not being submissive?

I asked my husband what he wanted with my hair...long, short, medium. I asked him because I wanted to please him more than myself.

He laughed at me for asking, although he did end up saying he likes long hair, so I grew it out.

But when he needs to be confronted about something? There's no reason to be mean about it, but yeah, we definitely have times where we need to express what we're thinking and work it out.
He's not just my husband, he's my brother in Christ. If he screws up, I'm gonna confront him with it and if he loves me, why should he not do the same?

My word. Some people out there have women giving more spiritual support to men in the grocery store than they allow them to give their own husbands! Crazy weird. The minute I quit loving my husband is the minute I'll stop confronting him when I see he is out of God's will on something...or just being a bit too dorky like we ALL are sometimes, myself included. That's part of being a wife too, and part of being submissive to our Father and how He wants us to treat other believers!

 

[jaigner]

I believe the idea of male headship is a cultural one contextual to the first-century church Paul was addressing.

In any event, even without going that far, it seems pretty clear that submission to the point at which the husband dictates length of hair, meals, care of the children, etc. is controlling and repressive.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let's consider the context surrounding Ephesians 5:22-25.

First, Paul is writing to believers.

Second, he has just written (in v.21) for Ephesian believers to submit themselves to each other. What form did that submission take?

Then Paul says to the wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as unto the Lord. This is an action on the part of the believing wife to her believing husband. It is not something the husband may demand unilaterally.

That's because, Paul says to the husbands, you love our wives in the same way Christ loved his church. What is that way? So much that you'll die for her.

Now, lemme ask you, ladies. If your husband loved you with great intensity, placed your well-being as his top priority, sought your advice and counsel on family matters, shared the child-rearing responsibilities, took the lead in spiritual matters, just how much of a problem would this submission thing be?

Another point. Just as you cannot have equal partners in a business, neither can you have equal partners in a marriage. Otherwise you have gridlock. Ultimately one person must make the decision. That's why businesses can have partners, but one is the managing partner.

That is not to say that the other partner (the wife, in this case) has no say or input. Guys don't you think we'd be fools to ignore the counsel of our wives? Frankly, I would be stupid to ignore her advice and opinion, and just as foolish if I didn't ask for it.

The way I see it, this submission thing doesn't work very well unless both husband and wife are submitted first to the Lord.

 

[menageriekeeper]

You need to look up the definition of "submission."

To "confront" him is anything but submission.

TheGospelGeek looked it up for me (thank you, TGG). I like this part of the definition best:

2 : to present or propose to another for review, consideration, or decision;

So when I present to my husband that he has a bad attitude (or confront him, hmmm, synonyms!) I'm still well within the definition of submission.

Matter of fact I like this part of the definition as well:

3 : to put forward as an opinion or contention <we submit that the charge is not proved>
intransitive verb

As in:

Dearest, I submit to you that you have a bad attitude and I have a rolling pin that can fix the issue!

mmmm, might just like that part of the definition a little too well.

:laugh:

 

[SHawk]

My husband is currently not serving God and he is sometimes rude and demanding-even controlling and manipulative. I have delt with this for years and God has confirmed to me repeatedly that I am to stay submissive as long as he does not ask me to sin. When I get angry and bitter and want to quit trying God convicts me- I just went through this in the last few weeks. Sometimes the last thing I want to do is be kind and submissive to him-he does not deserve it. But I don't do it because he deserves it, but because God asks me to and God is the one I am trying to please. In a perfect world life should not be this way- husband should be more considerate and this shouldn't be an issue. Wives should cut thier hair to the length their husband want out of a desire to please the one they love. Husbands should request what they want for dinner, but be understanding if she can't make it that night. Well, life ain't perfect and sometimes we find our selves in trial that last for years. But God gives mercy (I need lots of that) and grace. I have further verses that God has given me to back up what I have written, but I have not the time to look them up and post them.
If my husband gets angry about dinner or something similar I try to remain calm, submissive, and I try to please him. There are people who have it worse than me. But I have 4 kids who are watching. Plus if one day he leaves me I want to know I've done everything possible to make it work. I want to be right before God and have Him to be pleased with me. I don't want to do this without God.

 

[Scarlett O.]

If my husband gets angry about dinner or something similar I try to remain calm, submissive, and I try to please him. There are people who have it worse than me. But I have 4 kids who are watching. Plus if one day he leaves me I want to know I've done everything possible to make it work. I want to be right before God and have Him to be pleased with me. I don't want to do this without God.

You have my prayers. I know many women in your predicament. They, like you, want to please God. And they've been told that submission means "taking it". I don't know if that's you or not, but it's mindset of some of the women that I know that live with men who aren't living up to Biblical standards.

I'll leave you with this passage that I think is a good one.

1 Peter 3:1-4 "Wives, in the same way, submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, even if some disobey the [Christian] message, they may be won over without a message by the way their wives live, when they observe your pure, reverent lives. Your beauty should not consist of outward things [like] elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold ornaments or fine clothes; instead, [it should consist of] the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very valuable in God's eyes."

A gentle spirit does not mean that you cannot tell your husband when he is in the wrong. You can, with love and kindness, ask him, "Honey, is something wrong?" or "You know, dear, when you talk to me like that in front of the children, I have to wonder, what are they learning about being a man?" I understand that sometimes in a relationship like you describe, speaking, even gently, only makes things worse. As I said, I will pray for you.

A quiet spirit does not mean that you have to keep your mouth shut. It literally means tranquility or peacefulness. Sometimes one has to open their mouth to maintain peace.

You said that your 4 children are watching you and I'm glad you understand that. I'm glad that you don't blow up at him in front of them.

Remember, they are watching him, too. What are they learning from him?

You know what's best - for you and for your children. Keep trusting God. Keep pleasing Him.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Let's consider the context surrounding Ephesians 5:22-25.

First, Paul is writing to believers.

Second, he has just written (in v.21) for Ephesian believers to submit themselves to each other. What form did that submission take?

Exactlly right Tom,

I find it interesting that many people say the wife should be a limp dish rag to be ordered around by her husband as she smiles and grants his every desire are often the same folk who say that we should express our christian liberty without consideration of the weaker brothers and sisters. In one case submission is taken to the extreme and in the other it is not considered at all.

 

[Tom Butler]

Yeah, gospelgeek, I fail to see how a wife is not being biblically submissive when she challenges her husband when he's acting like a jerk.

Early on in my marriage years ago, my wife and I were having a heated discussion over some now-forgotten issue. I thought I'd regurgitate the old argument "well, that's just the way I am and you ought to accept me for who I am." I thought, that'll end the argument.

My wife was having none of it. "I don't accept you for who you are, because who you are right now is not very good. You have to change."

Whoa! Nobody ever 'splained it like that to me before.

Now, was my wife not being submissive? Should she have held her tongue when I trotted out the old cliche? By the way, I changed.

Maybe we ought to be discussing how we define submission. Just exactly what form should it take? Somewhere along the way I think we've missed something.

 

[freeatlast]

Well that's kind of like the question "did you stop beating your wife?". The husband does not have the right to control his wife.

Like I stated before very few today really believe the bible. They say they do but their actions speak louder then their words. If the bible says to do so and so we say it really does not mean that. Or we say that was for the people back then due to culture.

"So the husband does not have the right to control the wife."

Well let's see what the scripture says even though the bible does not matter to many.
Eph. 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

well if the husband is not over the wife (head, boss, master, lord) then Christ is not over any person because the submission is to be just like it is done to the Lord, and if He is not Lord then there is no salvation. However to be honest the church today does follow this type of thinking and practice. SAD! :tear:

By the way the example is the wife of Abraham;
1 Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

However today we have this;
1 Tim 3:2-5 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

This is what we have today. The men refuse to love their wives as Christ loved the church and the women refuse to obey them as they are to obey Christ. All because of what is stated in 1Tim. :tear:

So the statement
"So the husband does not have the right to control the wife."
Is both rebellious and false according to the Lord's word.

Let me again point all to the book
Gardening for the Master By J.F. Ward
It is out of print but it can be found. Here is one place to find it.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchEntry?errorcode=1
While the life of this woman will not be comfrontable for most who claim to be Christians today it will shine a light as to the truth of the bible and its calling to the husband/wife relationship. Also it may even cause some to repent so maybe it should not be read!

 

[webdog]

Like I stated before very few today really believe the bible. They say they do but their actions speak louder then their words. If the bible says to do so and so we say it really does not mean that. Or we say that was for the people back then due to culture.

"So the husband does not have the right to control the wife."

Well let's see what the scripture says even though the bible does not matter to many.
Eph. 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

well if the husband is not over the wife (head, boss, master, lord) then Christ is not over any person because the submission is to be just like it is done to the Lord, and if He is not Lord then there is no salvation. However to be honest the church today does follow this type of thinking and practice. SAD! :tear:

By the way the example is the wife of Abraham;
1 Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

However today we have this;
1 Tim 3:2-5 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

This is what we have today. The men refuse to love their wives as Christ loved the church and the women refuse to obey them as they are to obey Christ. All because of what is stated in 1Tim. :tear:

So the statement
"So the husband does not have the right to control the wife."
Is both rebellious and false according to the Lord's word.

Let me again point all to the book
Gardening for the Master By J.F. Ward
It is out of print but it can be found. Here is one place to find it.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchEntry?errorcode=1
While the life of this woman will not be comfrontable for most who claim to be Christians today it will shine a light as to the truth of the bible and its calling to the husband/wife relationship. Also it may even cause some to repent so maybe it should not be read!

Using your same logic, do you mix fabrics? Do you leave your hair long at the temples? Do the women in your church remain silent? Are they only taught by their husbands? Do they wear head coverings? Do you keep the Sabbath and tithe from your livestock and crops?
I asked you this before...do you know what hermeneutics is?

 

[freeatlast]

Using your same logic, do you mix fabrics? Do you leave your hair long at the temples? Do the women in your church remain silent? Are they only taught by their husbands? Do they wear head coverings? Do you keep the Sabbath and tithe from your livestock and crops?
I asked you this before...do you know what hermeneutics is?

Standard rebellious reply. First the NT does not give commands to do most the things that you point out, but it does command the woman to submitt to her husband and it does give Sara as an example as she called him lord. ..
You asked'
"I asked you this before...do you know what hermeneutics is?"

Yes and I also know what rebellion is also as well as what a command is. :BangHead:
While hermeneutics is necssary in dealing with both linguistic and non-linguistic expressions and must be used in any process of translation it can be an excuse not to obey once a translation is conceived if the one reading that translation is bent on something different then what is given.

Jesus said;
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[thegospelgeek]

freeatlast...
The Bible says to submit to the husband, submit to the Lord, and submit to one another. How did that turn into the husband has the right to "control" the wife. If that is what submission means then we must let others "control" us since the Bible says we are to submitt to one another. So now we are in a paradox. You must submit to my authority which states one thing and I must submit to your authority which has an opposite POV. Surely you can recognize that submit then can not mean to blindly follow.

My wife and I have no problem with this submission thing, she has equal input, I have final authority. Rarely have we come to a point whre I have to invoke any kind of authority since we have a love for one another that places the other above ourselves. I do not "control" her any more than Christ "controls" me. Rather he leads me, guides me, and corrects me. I am instucted to submit to this. I can not find where we are puppets being "controlled".

 

[freeatlast]

freeatlast...
The Bible says to submit to the husband, submit to the Lord, and submit to one another. How did that turn into the husband has the right to "control" the wife. If that is what submission means then we must let others "control" us since the Bible says we are to submitt to one another. So now we are in a paradox. You must submit to my authority which states one thing and I must submit to your authority which has an opposite POV. Surely you can recognize that submit then can not mean to blindly follow.

My wife and I have no problem with this submission thing, she has equal input, I have final authority. Rarely have we come to a point whre I have to invoke any kind of authority since we have a love for one another that places the other above ourselves. I do not "control" her any more than Christ "controls" me. Rather he leads me, guides me, and corrects me. I am instucted to submit to this. I can not find where we are puppets being "controlled".

Let me ask you this then I will answer you.
The scripture says her part is "even as unto the Lord". Do you and the Lord have equal imput?

 

[thegospelgeek]

Let me ask you this then I will answer you.
The scripture says her part is "even as unto the Lord". Do you and the Lord have equal imput?

Yes and no. If I ask for something that is Godly or have a request that is neutral yes. If I ask, demand, request or whatever, something that is contrary to scripture, No.

There is no way the scriptures instruct her to allow me to beat her or abuse her. By your definition, if I beat the poo out of her and tell her not to tell, then she must obey. If I have an adulterous affair and tell her to shutup and put up with it, then she must.

The same would also reply in my relationship with yourself. You would have to be at my command and do what ever I instucted you to do. I I told you to drive to Jackson OH, cook me steak and potatoes, massage my feet and scratch my back, you would be bound by scriptures to comply. Do you really think that is what is intended?

 

[freeatlast]

Yes and no. If I ask for something that is Godly or have a request that is neutral yes. If I ask, demand, request or whatever, something that is contrary to scripture, No.

There is no way the scriptures instruct her to allow me to beat her or abuse her. By your definition, if I beat the poo out of her and tell her not to tell, then she must obey. If I have an adulterous affair and tell her to shutup and put up with it, then she must.

The same would also reply in my relationship with yourself. You would have to be at my command and do what ever I instucted you to do. I I told you to drive to Jackson OH, cook me steak and potatoes, massage my feet and scratch my back, you would be bound by scriptures to comply. Do you really think that is what is intended?

Since you have chose not to answer the question then neither will I answer you.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Since you have chose not to answer the question then neither will I answer you.

I thought I did

Yes and no. If I ask for something that is Godly or have a request that is neutral yes. If I ask, demand, request or whatever, something that is contrary to scripture, No.

If that is not an answer, then I am not understanding what you are asking. I'm not real smart, so you might have to simplify.

 

[freeatlast]

I thought I did


If that is not an answer, then I am not understanding what you are asking. I'm not real smart, so you might have to simplify.

It is simple. Do you and the Lord have equal imput? It is not yes and no. :tonofbricks::tonofbricks:

 

[thegospelgeek]

It is simple. Do you and the Lord have equal imput? It is not yes and no. :tonofbricks::tonofbricks:

Then it would be no, as that she should not submit to me for ungodly acts.