Submission...to what, and "everything"? (Eph. 5:24)

[Scarlett O.]

By the way the example is the wife of Abraham;

1 Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Hi, freeatlast,

I apologize in advance for being long-winded. It's a character flaw. :flower:

You said that the example for women is Sara. Don't confuse an example with a standard.

You only gave us half of the sentence that is grammatically NOT about her. You made her the subject of that sentence when she is not. Here is the whole sentence. Paul writes in really long sentences, you know. The entire sentence is contained in two verses, not one.

1 Peter 3:5-6
"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement."

OK, here is a break down of the sentence in it's entirety.


What is the subject and the verb in this complex sentence? The subject is "holy women". And the verb phrase is "adorned themselves".

So we have "holy women adorned themselves". That's the kernel sentence.

There are two adverbial prepositional phrases in front of the subject. "For after this manner" and "in the old time". There is another subordinate phrase after the subject that tell why they behaved the way that they did "who trusted God".

"For after this manner" means "and just like this".

So far we have this: "And just as I am describing wifely behavior to you, women in the old days adorned themselves in the same way because they trusted God."

What way did they adorn themselves? In the manner that Peter just described.....with reverence to the husband's authority and with chaste behavior so that their unbelieving husbands would come to know Christ.

Now....he mentions Sarah. He mentions her paranthetically. (See the phrase set off by colons?) She is not the subject of that sentence. She is not the standard of reverence. She is an EXAMPLE of reverence, not the standard.

So, now we have:

"And just as I am describing wifely behavior to you, women in the old days adorned themselves in the same way, with great reverence for their husband's authority, because they trusted God; in fact, Sarah called her husband lord;....."

The last part of this very long sentence contains the word "daughters". Peter is saying that wives are the spiritual daughters of the godly women of old, NOT SARAH. The phrase, "whose daughters ye are" is modifying the subject, "holy women".

And how are they the spiritual daughters? He says they are "IF they do well and are NOT afraid". Do well in what? Reverencing their husband's authority. Aren't afraid of what? Of being a Godly wife and living a life that displays the attributes of Christ so that they husbands might be saved.

So, here's the full meaning of that sentence in it's finality.

"And just as I am describing wifely behavior to you, women in the old days adorned themselves in the same way, with great reverence for their husband's authority, because they trusted God; in fact, Sarah called her husband lord; and as long as you do well and aren't afraid of being a living witness to your lost husband, you will be just like these holy women of old."

 

[webdog]

Since you have chose not to answer the question then neither will I answer you.

"Standard rebellious reply". Since you are commanded to submit to me, I command you to answer the question....unless you really don't believe Scripture says what it means and means what it says

 

[thegospelgeek]

"standard rebellious reply". Since you are commanded to submit to me, i command you to answer the question....unless you really don't believe scripture says what it means and means what it says

lol ........

freeatlast, please don't think I am laughing at you, but that's just funny.

 

[freeatlast]

freeatlast...
The Bible says to submit to the husband, submit to the Lord, and submit to one another. How did that turn into the husband has the right to "control" the wife. If that is what submission means then we must let others "control" us since the Bible says we are to submitt to one another. So now we are in a paradox. You must submit to my authority which states one thing and I must submit to your authority which has an opposite POV. Surely you can recognize that submit then can not mean to blindly follow.

My wife and I have no problem with this submission thing, she has equal input, I have final authority. Rarely have we come to a point whre I have to invoke any kind of authority since we have a love for one another that places the other above ourselves. I do not "control" her any more than Christ "controls" me. Rather he leads me, guides me, and corrects me. I am instucted to submit to this. I can not find where we are puppets being "controlled".

All right then your answer is no. So she is to submit the same way to the husband. There is to be no argument. Now here is the answer to your questions.

Your question;
"The Bible says to submit to the husband, submit to the Lord, and submit to one another. How did that turn into the husband has the right to "control" the wife."

Answer;
Actually the bible does not say that in the context which you gave it. In Eph 5:21 it first says submit to one to another. Then it explains how we are to do this. The woman is to submit to her OWN husband even as unto the Lord. And you agreed there is no debating in our relationship with the Lord. (My words) So she is to submit to the husband in the same manner as she is to submit to the Lord. No more and no less.The Lord is to run our lives. He decides our every action. The bible says that we are to do all we do as unto the Lord. That is her submitting to her husband. All she does is towards him
The man's submission is to love her as Christ loved the church giving Himself up for her. In other words the man once he decides to take a bride is doing so understanding that he is giving up all his rights, sacrificing himself so that he presents himself a chaste bride. He does this by living a Holy life, leading her in all righteousness and making the decisions for their lives as how they will live out their lives together. He never again is to do anything out of selfish personal desires. He gives up everthing to take her to himself. He is totally responsible for all she does because he is the one that is suppose to be leading her. Just like our Lord is totally responsible for us towards God, likewise the man is responsible for the woman. Just like our Lord who is kind, loving and patient the man is to be the same, he does not speak down to her or mock her or ever put his hands on her out of anger, and yet he must make some difficult choices to lead. Our Lord has to make some difficult decisions and so will the man in the home, but she is to submit.

Your statement/question;
If that is what submission means then we must let others "control" us since the Bible says we are to submit to one another. So now we are in a paradox.

Answer;
The answer is YES that the bible lays out the guidelines of that submission and we are to follow it. In the case of the husband and wife that is answered above. There is no paradox. Simply obedience out of love for the Lord.

Your statement/question;
You must submit to my authority which states one thing and I must submit to your authority which has an opposite POV. Surely you can recognize that submit then can not mean to blindly follow.

Answer;
The answer is no. Again her submission is to obey and follow her husband. His submission is to love her as Christ loved the church giving Himself up. Both are submitting but each has a different role in that submission. And yes it does require at times following him blindly as does our following the Lord.

Your statement;
My wife and I have no problem with this submission thing, she has equal input, I have final authority.

Answer. Actually you both have a problem with biblical submission. And you do not have a biblical marriage in this regard. There is no equal input with the Lord from us and you agreed. He does not run by us His decisions. He needs no council from us. Yes we can pose requests, but that is as far as it goes. Thy will not mine, remember? We then are to obey what He says. There is no equality in this. It is not even about equality. It is about faith and obedience. You stated that you have the final authority. I would say you are incorrect. If she has equal input then YOU do not have final authority. What you have is like a two headed calf. Both trying to rule. While you may take credit for the final decision the truth is it was not yours it is both of yours and in that you are rebelling against your responsibility. The husband is to seek his decisions from Christ's leadership and then lead his family by it. Again there is no such thing as equal input and being the one who leads. Marriage is not a democracy!

Your statement;
Rarely have we come to a point where I have to invoke any kind of authority since we have a love for one another that places the other above ourselves.

Answer;
This has nothing about "the man exercising authority." If you ever have to do that you are not being obedient to the command of the husbands role and neither is she. The command for both is not one where the man demands submission of the wife any more then the wife demands that her husband love her as Christ loved the church. This passage is for those who are saved. Those who have surrendered to Jesus Christ. This passage is in each case, for the man and for the woman, how they are to live with the other. Each one submitting willfully, and lovingly to God in Christ one to the other in each ones role, and in doing so the marriage relationship is what God intended. Any deviation and the marriage is not a biblical marriage.

So each one is submitting in the manner which each has been called. In this way we submit one to another. It is not about demanding submission on either's part. It is about accepting the role that God has called us to out of love for the Lord. So in the same way that you do not have equal input with the Lord neither is the wife to have equal input with the husband. Like I said she can make a request and give the reason, but what ever he decides is to be the final answer and she is not to nag or wine about it.

One more thing. Men keep in mind that the woman's role is not an easy one. No woman ever went to God and asked Him to make a command for the woman to submit to her husband. Yet God without her council did so. So with that keep in mind that she has a difficult role and we are to lift her up so that she can carry it out. She is the weaker.

For the women I would say the same thing. No man ever went to God and asked Him to make a command that the men love their wives as Christ loved the church. No man wants to give up everything for any woman no matter how many may have lied saying they would. Both roles are totally impossible without a personal Spirit led relationship with the Lord. However both roles are totally capable of being fulfilled if Christ is the center of the relationship. The entire process depends on if we really trust the Lord or not. :thumbs:

 

[Scarlett O.]

So in the same way that you do not have equal input with the Lord neither is the wife to have equal input with the husband. Like I said she can make a request and give the reason, but what ever he decides is to be the final answer and she is not to nag or wine about it.

Pardon me for saying so, but this sounds EXACTLY like a parent raising a teenager.

"Please, please, please Dad, let me have the car this weekend!!"

"Please, please, please, dear husband, don't make me cook Thanksgiving at our house again this year!"

If whatever he decides is the final answer, then why does she even make a request at all?

 

[freeatlast]

lol ........

freeatlast, please don't think I am laughing at you, but that's just funny.

Yes I do agree it is funny, but it is also very sad that we have lost the understanding of God's commands and our responsibility. raying:

 

[menageriekeeper]

And yes it does require at times following him blindly as does our following the Lord.

It is obvious that we are going to just plain disagree about nearly everything you wrote but the above quote is the root of the disagreement. When have yo ever followed the Lord blindly? When has He ever expected that of us? And I wanna see scripture, please.

And even if He did expect us to follow blindly, He wouldn't lead us into danger or sin. That would go against His entire nature.

 

[freeatlast]

Pardon me for saying so, but this sounds EXACTLY like a parent raising a teenager.

"Please, please, please Dad, let me have the car this weekend!!"

"Please, please, please, dear husband, don't make me cook Thanksgiving at our house again this year!"

If whatever he decides is the final answer, then why does she even make a request at all?

I realize this is very difficult, but the answer is because God says so. :thumbs:

 

[thegospelgeek]

You have certainly misunderstood my relationship with my wife, but that is not the point of the discussion. What you descibe is the idea situation, which I agree with. But what about the non-perfect situation. The wife is told to submit to her husband. This husband is unsaved and abusive. Is she to be obediant? Is he to run her life. Does he tell her how to wear her hair? What to cook? What if it gets worse? What if he starts instucting her to disobey scripture? How about stop attending church? Maby prositute herself so he can buy drugs. After all, the scripture instucts her to submit to him as she would the Lord. So if they contridict, they should have equal weight. Whom should she obey. To remain true to your understanding of the verse she must become 2 people and obey both.

 

[freeatlast]

It is obvious that we are going to just plain disagree about nearly everything you wrote but the above quote is the root of the disagreement. When have yo ever followed the Lord blindly? When has He ever expected that of us? And I wanna see scripture, please.

And even if He did expect us to follow blindly, He wouldn't lead us into danger or sin. That would go against His entire nature.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Following blindly does not mean we follow without command. It means we follow without question even when we do not have all the answers or reasons why. By the way you might want to read about some missionaries who have been lead into harms way. The NT would be enough simply by reading about Pauls life. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[freeatlast]

You have certainly misunderstood my relationship with my wife, but that is not the point of the discussion. What you descibe is the idea situation, which I agree with. But what about the non-perfect situation. The wife is told to submit to her husband. This husband is unsaved and abusive. Is she to be obediant? Is he to run her life. Does he tell her how to wear her hair? What to cook? What if it gets worse? What if he starts instucting her to disobey scripture? How about stop attending church? Maby prositute herself so he can buy drugs. After all, the scripture instucts her to submit to him as she would the Lord. So if they contridict, they should have equal weight. Whom should she obey. To remain true to your understanding of the verse she must become 2 people and obey both.

The only thing I had to go on is what you said about your relationship. The answer is simple and there is never a contradiction, just believe what is written;

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

1Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

While I should not be I am however always amazed when someone seeks to pose scenarios in an effort to prove that God's word cannot be obeyed.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Following blindly does not mean we follow without command. It means we follow without question even when we do not have all the answers or reasons why. By the way you might want to read about some missionaries who have been lead into harms way. The NT would be enough simply by reading about Pauls life. :smilewinkgrin:

Paul, being both a Jew and a Roman citizen and certainly being no one's fool, had a pretty good idea of what he was getting into and chose that path in spite. Missionaries too, have a pretty good idea of what they are going to face on the feild, they aren't obeying without knowing the risks. Nor does God ask us to do anything out of His own selfishness, which would indeed be abuse.

And leading one toward danger is certainly not the same thing as leading one into sin, nor is it the same as simply abusing a person in order to prove control over them (which is exactly what an abusive husband/wife/parent is doing).

So try again on proving to me that God asks us to follow blindly, without considering the consequences of our actions and choosing to do as He asks.

 

[freeatlast]

Paul, being both a Jew and a Roman citizen and certainly being no one's fool, had a pretty good idea of what he was getting into and chose that path in spite. Missionaries too, have a pretty good idea of what they are going to face on the feild, they aren't obeying without knowing the risks. Nor does God ask us to do anything out of His own selfishness, which would indeed be abuse.

And leading one toward danger is certainly not the same thing as leading one into sin, nor is it the same as simply abusing a person in order to prove control over them (which is exactly what an abusive husband/wife/parent is doing).

So try again on proving to me that God asks us to follow blindly, without considering the consequences of our actions and choosing to do as He asks.

I understand
Josh 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. :thumbs:

 

[menageriekeeper]

Why are you tossing out irrelevant scriptures to try to prove that God expects women to blindly follow their husbands and allow their husbands to abuse them? Can't you find anything to directly support your postition?

 

[freeatlast]

Why are you tossing out irrelevant scriptures to try to prove that God expects women to blindly follow their husbands and allow their husbands to abuse them? Can't you find anything to directly support your postition?

If you cannot believe God then that is your problem not mine. God has said what He expects and you have rejected, that's fine, but very unwise.

 

[menageriekeeper]

If you cannot believe God then that is your problem not mine. God has said what He expects and you have rejected, that's fine, but very unwise.

^^^This is the last resort of a weak arguement.^^^

You still haven't told me where God said a woman should stay with a sinful, abusive husband and allow, enable him to sin and even commit sin herself in effort to please the man. When you can do that, then I'll believe HIM. Until then, I have better things to do than beat a dead horse.

Webdog, have you thrown that book down the hill side yet?

 

[webdog]

If you cannot believe God then that is your problem not mine. God has said what He expects and you have rejected, that's fine, but very unwise.

Oh, we believe God...we just don't believe what YOU say He says and reject that. Mighty haughty to put oneself on the same plane as God...

 

[jaigner]

The only thing I had to go on is what you said about your relationship. The answer is simple and there is never a contradiction, just believe what is written;

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

1Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

While I should not be I am however always amazed when someone seeks to pose scenarios in an effort to prove that God's word cannot be obeyed.

It should be obeyed, but it's not as easy as reading the plain text. We have to exegete and interpret to learn what it meant to the people who originally received it. That doesn't mean we can pick or choose or that it is anything less than what it is, but we can't just take tiny snippets without examining the whole - the whole passage and the whole story of Scripture.

This issue, especially is not so easy. Remember who this word was first written to and what was going on there. Women were viewed as property ontologically inferior. Women were just beginning to be educated at all.

Often, God makes a concession to sinful humanity to accommodate His will. That is the case here. It does not appear to be making an overarching, overriding statement for all time. After much prayer, study and consideration, I believe that the model of male headship is not in effect for us today.

But even if I'm wrong, it seems that the repressive kind of submission this author is talking about is not a healthy or proper relationship.

 

[jaigner]

Pardon me for saying so, but this sounds EXACTLY like a parent raising a teenager.

"Please, please, please Dad, let me have the car this weekend!!"

"Please, please, please, dear husband, don't make me cook Thanksgiving at our house again this year!"

If whatever he decides is the final answer, then why does she even make a request at all?

Good post. This shows the absurdity of this idea.

 

[thegospelgeek]

The only thing I had to go on is what you said about your relationship. The answer is simple and there is never a contradiction, just believe what is written;

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

1Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

While I should not be I am however always amazed when someone seeks to pose scenarios in an effort to prove that God's word cannot be obeyed.

No one said that the can not be obeyed. What I am saying is that submission does not mean blind allegiance. You have failed to provide a difference between a wive's submission and submission one to another. Why is the wife suppose to do anything, but we nearly ignore the fact of submission one to another?