substitute words (and liquid)

I kept meaning to respond to this. Frankly, I imagine that 1st century wine growers were much like 21st century wine growers in that as soon as they finished treading out the grapes they would diligently get the juice into the bottles!! That would be a time frame of only a few minutes, I would think, though I've never done this job.

So, there are only two possibilities for the "new wine" in this passage to be already fermented.

(1) An incredibly fast rate of fermentation. "Judah, go go go!! We've got to get that new wine into the bottles before it ferments.... Wow, just 5 minutes 3 seconds by my wrist sundial. A new record. Unfortunately, in those 5 minutes it fermented to 2.3% alcohol. Well, we'll do better next time."

(2) "Done already, Judah? Hey, let's party. Get the old wine out! We can leave the new wine out for now. Who cares if it gets a few bugs or leaves in it? Protein is good for you. In fact, we'll do a better job in the morning after a good night's sleep and a leisurely breakfast."

:smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

 

Actually, I can use the same facts to argue the other way. What was important to the Lord was not the actual presence of the yeast for that entire week. What God was concerned about was the influence of the leaven on the bread, since that was a corrupting process to Him. The fermentation process is a direct parallel to the leavening process, leaving me to believe that God would want us to use grape juice, since it is non-fermented! :saint: :tongue3:

But never mind that. Let me ask you. Are you saying with this post and your previous ones that we who use grape juice (almost the same exact substance) are actually unbiblical and thus displeasing the Lord? Or are you willing to treat us with grace, and recognize what I have been arguing for all along on this thread, our freedom of conscience and the autonomy of our local churches?

 

It's a stretch to say it's not important to the Lord...since He was the One who gave the requirements in Exodus. Fermentation is the polar opposite of the leavening process, it does not parallel it. If you believe God wanted man to drink grape juice, the requirements of no yeast would have been contadictory and foolishness. If Jesus said that the bread and wine represented His body and blood, how could His "body" been free from yeast, and His "blood" not?
Luk 22:15 Then He said to them, "I have fervently desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luk 22:16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
Luk 22:17 Then He took a cup, and after giving thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves.
Luk 22:18For I tell you, from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks, broke it, gave it to them, and said, "This is My body (pure: free from yeast), which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of Me."
Luk 22:20 In the same way He also took the cup after supper and said, "This cup is the new covenant established by My blood (pure: free from yeast); it is shed for you.

It's not unbiblical, its abiblical. If we can use whatever, and are free to do so, why not use oreos and milk? Pizza and pop? Wings and water? Why do churches mimick the original Lords Supper by using communion crackers and welches, if it makes no difference? I understand local churches are autonomous, but does autonomy mean everything is done right?

 

There would have been no reason for the NT church to change from unleavened to leavened. This text does not support a change in the Lords Supper practice from the original. You can get full off of matza and drunk off of wine.

 

I'm all for oreos and milk!

But, a question.
Why do we do communion in the way we do it? Wasn't the cup and the bread meant not once a week, but once a month, but as a reminder EVERY time we eat bread or drink *wine* that we remember the blood and body of Christ?

Or did he mean when gathered for the Passover feast?

And if it WAS during Passover and this was a Passover feast, why do we not keep that as a tradition, if we're to keep that exact type of communion?

Really. If it is such a big deal about what was in the cup, why is it not a big deal to figure out what the meal really was, when it was, how often he meant it, and if he meant every time or during that specific holiday?

 

Gina, good questions.

The Bible doesn't give a standard of how often it is to be done, so this is where I believe the elders in the church would have the freedom to decide.

The passover feast was for the Jews, therefore every condition and requirement for it given by God to the Jews does not apply to the Church. I believe we are to observe the Lords Supper in the same manner as it was performed, knowing the true significance of not only the passover itself, but how leaven, bread and wine play into it. I don't think what is in the cup is that big of a deal if you don't know the history behind it...it was wine. It's the attitude of baptists and christians that believe wine in itself is a product of the devil. I take great offense to that view.

Our church uses grape juice. Do I agree? No, but I am under the authority of leaders He has put into place in the church, therefore I am under God's authority.

 

Hello JofJ. You evidently quit reading before you came to "They of course overstated their case, but the "bread and the wine" is the correct and acceptable way He wishes us to remember Him as we commune with Him."

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was just shocked at the way you put it at first, as if Jesus did not correct them because he thought they were right.

 

The following passage uses an even weaker word than oinos - "gkeukos" and even gleukos drunk long enough will result in drunkeness.

Acts 2

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.​

There is nothing that goes into a man which defiles him, it has to do primarily with his/her heart. If they turn to alcohol to numb their sorrows or "need" it to "have a good time", then that is their specific problem, not what they put in their mouth, stomach, arteries, etc which is symptomatic behavior.

Almost all of the substances of "abuse" are scheduled as medicines and Personally, I silently thank the Lord when the dentist gives me the novocain (or some other cocaine derivative) so that I can keep my teeth. Otherwise I would be a chicken.

However to use grape juice for the Lord's Table IMO is an exceptable substitute for wine seeing how many dear folks have a problem with it.


HankD

 

You do a good work John of Japan.

 

John

The problem with this is putting a fermenting liquid in a bottle does not stop fermentation. Grape juice will ferment perfectly in a bottle with the cork in the top. In a day or two you will have either a broken bottle or a poped cork.

Many people have bottled their beer or wine to quickly with out taking a hydromoter reading and dealt with broken bottles on the basement floor.

The only way they could have bottled fresh grape juice is to let it ferment almost compleatly or stop fermentation. They did not have the means to stop fermentation like pastorization.

When wine is almost done being fermented (but not just all the way) it is bottled. This is new wine it still has just a little leaven/yeast in it. When the wine has compleatly finished fermenting in the bottle leaving a small amount of sediment on the bottom of the bottle called lees it is old wine. Approx. a year after bottleing. The lees indicate it is leaven/yeast free and safe to drink on passover. It also becomes very stable and preserved when it is compleatly finished fermenting with lees on the bottom of the bottle.

 

I am ok with grape juice for the Lords Supper, only because it is pastorized and leaven/yeast free.

I would be opposed to fresh squeezed unpastorized grape juice for the Lords Supper. And I am against wonder bread for the Lords Supper.

I think we should stick to leaven free.

 

Well, of course the fermentation does not stop! That was the point of the parable!

My point was that when the liquid was put in the bottle it was a clear usage of the Greek word oinos as grape juice.

 

I see. I must have misunderstood. :flower:

 

No problemo!:thumbs:

 

Only by God's grace and power, brother! :Fish:

 

Those that remained under the law of ordinances did both. They drank wine, and ate leaven free bread when remembering Him. Paul's gospel releases us to do what we will in Him, to either drink wine or grape juice, or eat leavened or leaven free, for the "Lord's Supper" is not an ordinance of law, but a request to do when ever we wish. This is the "liberty and freedom we have in Christ", and we do it as oft as we will. He set no Holy Day, or Days for us to remember Him. The Catholic church does that.