Substitutionary Atonment Question.

[Thinkingstuff]

Christ's death was the substitutionary atonement and propitiation for sins. His death paid the penalty for sins.

I'm not sure what you are asking. Justification happens after one believes; justification did not happen with the atonement.

I'm looking at it from this perspective from another dialogue.

The three main theories of the atonement are: Christus Victor (after Gustav Aulen), which has a historical Ransom element to it and of late has had a renaissance in understanding as a victory of God over the Powers, and narrative and Non-Violent versions have been developed; Substitutionary Atonement (after Anselm of Canterbury), sometimes called the Satisfaction theory, the dominant theory for much of the last 1000 years, which was narrowed by the Protestant Reformers to what we’ve come to call Penal Substitution; and Moral Influence (after Peter Abelard) which emphasises the profound love of God expressed in Jesus’ horrendous death.

 

[Marcia]

GE:
Correct!
But there are those exact Scriptures that say we are justified by the resurrection of Christ; so justification only happens after the Resurrection of Christ, and one believe that!

Therefore one cannot make a separation between Christ's death and when a person believe. The distinction should be made between Christ's substitutionary atonement "made", or "finished" or "wrought" or "perfected" in Christ's "resurrection: from the dead" and death he died - not before or after.

"We _are_ justified by Christ's resurrection, says Paul; we are not being afterwards justified. God began and God completed justification in Christ and in His Atonement availed, which Atonement He availed and finished by suffering, dying death, and rising from the dead again. "Christ the all in all fulfilling Fullness of God". One cubic centimeter short of that fullness, no justification!

But Abraham was justified when he had faith in God in the OT. Justification is being made righteous in the eyes of God.

 

[Marcia]

Quotation posted by (not said by) ThinkingStuff:
The three main theories of the atonement are: Christus Victor (after Gustav Aulen), which has a historical Ransom element to it and of late has had a renaissance in understanding as a victory of God over the Powers, and narrative and Non-Violent versions have been developed; Substitutionary Atonement (after Anselm of Canterbury), sometimes called the Satisfaction theory, the dominant theory for much of the last 1000 years, which was narrowed by the Protestant Reformers to what we’ve come to call Penal Substitution; and Moral Influence (after Peter Abelard) which emphasises the profound love of God expressed in Jesus’ horrendous death

We studied all of these in soteriology. The Moral Influence theory is not biblically sound but it seems from what I've read that some of the Catholic mystics had this belief.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But Abraham was justified when he had faith in God in the OT. Justification is being made righteous in the eyes of God.

GE:
Absolutely, Yes!
Righteousness by faith = Christ our Righteousness! While it is also written Christ is our sanctification --- which few people, if they knew, would want to also believe!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Post deleted ; I'm sorry!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Post duplicated because line is so slow! Apologies!

 

[Marcia]

GE:
Correct!
But there are those exact Scriptures that say we are justified by the resurrection of Christ; so justification only happens after the Resurrection of Christ, and one believe that!

Therefore one cannot make a separation between Christ's death and when a person believe. The distinction should be made between Christ's substitutionary atonement "made", or "finished" or "wrought" or "perfected" in Christ's "resurrection: from the dead" and death he died - not before or after.

"We _are_ justified by Christ's resurrection, says Paul; we are not being afterwards justified. God began and God completed justification in Christ and in His Atonement availed, which Atonement He availed and finished by suffering, dying death, and rising from the dead again. "Christ the all in all fulfilling Fullness of God". One cubic centimeter short of that fullness, no justification!

Please cite the specific passage so that we can read it. You are quoting without giving a reference.

 

[billwald]

I am angry with you so I beat up my son and everything is OK between us??

 

[Havensdad]

I am angry with you so I beat up my son and everything is OK between us??

Your failing to grasp the concept of the Trinity. Jesus and the Father are not two inherently separated entities like a man and His son.

The Bible says it pleased Yahweh to Crush Him (Isaiah 53:10).

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a Biblical fact.

Edit#

A much better analogy, in light of the Trinitarian concept of God, would be a judge who was too righteous to let a crime go unpunished, so He sentenced the criminal, then stepped off the bench and took the punishment for him.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that (by one offering) are sanctified."

"That no flesh should glory in His Presence, but of Him are ye in Christ Jesus who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written. He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord (Jesus Christ)."


"We gave you commandments by the Lord Jesus-- for this is the Will of God-your-sanctification; so that you should abstain from ..." for God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness; he therefore that despiseth (holiness) despitheth not man, but God."

"For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified, are all of one (Jesus Christ / God): for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren."

"How much more shall the blood of Christ sanctify, who through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself (The Resurrected) without spot to God, (and) purge your consience from dead works to serve the (Risen) Living God?"

Compare the current thread on Atonement. This is it.

 

[Marcia]

I am angry with you so I beat up my son and everything is OK between us??

Jesus willingly gave up his life. In these 5 verses in John 10, Jesus says it 4 times:

14"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father."

The OT accounts of sacrificing if animals show the awful cost of sin -- blood and more blood. The price is sin is steep -- too steep for any person to pay. So Jesus paid that price.

 

[Marcia]

Double post - sorry!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ja, I know the learned stuff of imputed righteousness and the subjective and objective theories - usually quite right from Protestant point of view, but missing the heart of justification, which is the Living Offering before the LORD God of the Life of our Risen-from-the-dead-Lord-Jesus-Christ, 2000 plus years ago, as, and, "WHEN God raised Him from the dead". There, and then already and once for ever, was Christ - and NOTHING IN US - made our righteousness, our justification, our sanctification, our perfection, our, everything that pertains to salvation: in fact and in the act, as it is written: "our Redemption", The All in all fulfilling Fullness of God."

There is NOTHING left that man must or can or may do to add! Christ Jesus is all our salvation, the Beginning and the End of the CREATION OF GOD"!

 

[Marcia]

Never mind -- something weird when I posted but it's okay now.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Now, maybe this will take on a new meaning:
"Having an High Priest over the House of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and ou bodies washed with pure water (of the Water of Life), let us (now) hold fast: (1) the Profession of Faith, without waivering, for He that promised (is) faithful!"

Mark, that there is one thing only for 'us' left to do.

 

[swaimj]

Thinkingstuff,

Are you saying

I think substitutionary atonement is the most important aspect of the atonement"

or

"I do not believe in substitutionary atonement because it makes God look like a bully"

or

"Substitutionary atonement is certainly an aspect of the atonement, but not the central aspect and certainly not the only aspect"?

Please clarify what you are trying to say. So far, it is not clear to me.

 

[BobRyan]

I guess what you're trying to get at is that you think I'm saying you're belief in substitutionary attonment questions God's sanity which wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say what I clarified in post 8. Do you think that your perseption of Substitutionary attonement is sufficient? Do you think there is more if there is nothing else to it then what does that say about how to view the character of God with relation to what you believe about substitutionary atonment? Would that view put in question his character or sanity? ( I admit I might not put things the best way and if I offended you personally by using the word You. I am sorry. Trying to get a discussion off the ground.)

I like the way this guy thinks!!:applause:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ok. I heard your polemic. Can you explain the mechanics?

Once again!!:applause:

Nice going!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I'm looking at it from this perspective from another dialogue.

The three main theories of the atonement are: Christus Victor (after Gustav Aulen), which has a historical Ransom element to it and of late has had a renaissance in understanding as a victory of God over the Powers, and narrative and Non-Violent versions have been developed; Substitutionary Atonement (after Anselm of Canterbury), sometimes called the Satisfaction theory, the dominant theory for much of the last 1000 years, which was narrowed by the Protestant Reformers to what we’ve come to call Penal Substitution; and Moral Influence (after Peter Abelard) which emphasises the profound love of God expressed in Jesus’ horrendous death.

Now see? THAT's what I'm talking about!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I'm angry at you so I punch out my child?

How about this.

You and your son engineer some talking dogs. Your dogs love you as all good pets do. Turns out you are a big PETA person - and so you love them as well. All is bliss.

You have rules about not biting people -- and those who bite people must die. The unsavory penalty for violating the law is how law is held to be "authorotative" and substantive in the eyes of the dogs. As long as the rules are clear and the dogs get the point that a bunch of biting dogs is not at all what you are going to allow - hard and fast rule about that -- all continues to go well.

Then one of your dogs bites someone.

Your son comes to you and wants to discuss a way that will preserve the inegrity of the law that you have affirmed can not be broken as well as your desire to save the doomed dog.

The Son offers to take the place of the dog thus upholding the penalty the law demands -- all dogs are sad about possibility of the master whom they would all willingly die for -- being sent to die for a mere dog!! But you are with PETA on this - you love your dogs.

Still to uphold the law your solution must not only have the unsavor penalty paid -- it must get rid of the biting dog! It does no good to STILL end up with a bunch of biting dogs after all our work. So that means -- you have to CREATE "(genetically engineer???) a new nature in the biting dog and you have to come up with a way to KILL the old biting dog nature.

In a system of justice the murderer has to die - so that no more actual MURDERS take place. He has to die in such a way as to disuade others from following -- a way that upholds the unsavory penalty of the law. You can't simply send him to "paradise island" to enjoy himself for all of time as the way to "get rid of the biting dog". You will get lots more biting dogs if you do that.

Now of course we know that the gap between God and man is much LARGER than the one between human and the mythical talking dog -- but you get the point.

in Christ,

Bob