Suffering

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Excellent answer DHK. :thumbs:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

HP:I personally would take issue with the notions I raised in my own post. From your response I would say that you have good reason then why to seek a response for such questions as you ask. You know intuitively that the answers one might give may well direct such an individual to the truth.:thumbs:

I would try to direct individuals asking such questions as you present involving suffering in the following manner. First do you believe there is a God, and do you believe the Bible is Gods revelation to man? If you cannot get past those with the response as positive affirmations, I would stop there and address those issues for obvious reasons. If there is no God, or if God has not revealed Himself to man via Scriptures, nothing one could say in reality could have any impact.

If they acknowledge there is a God, and that Scriptures are indeed Gods revelation of truth to man, there is a platform of truth to proceed. I would point out that we are not infinite as God is, and that regardless of what we do know there will always be questions. Therefore I would give close attention NOT to the many questions, but rather to the clear answers given in Scripture concerning God. God says He is Love. If I believe Scriptures are true, I accept that fact first and foremost. I work from things I know of certainty, and when questions arise I cannot still understand, I do NOT change my beliefs concerning those things I know absolutely, but rather allow questions to remain unsolved until such a time God might reveal to me an answer.


I believe it was Algernon Sydney that stated something like this. True fortitude of knowledge consist in not allowing the things we do not know to confuse the things we know with certainty.

I well may not have the answers for all of ones questions especially in this world, but I do have some unshakable truth to offer that we can place our trust in while we wait for answers to the many perplexing questions we all have. God is love! God cares for us in our present state, and He is doing all He can wisely do for each one of us. We are also co-workers together with God. God also is working in and through us and supports our efforts to do good to the suffering of others, and praises us, and will reward us, as we act as His hands and feet in this present world.

In short, direct the conversation to things we can be assured of, and do not allow questions to deter us from our love for God or to question His character due to our limited finite understanding.

This well may not be the answer or even direction you desire to hear, but I am only trying to give you from my heart my finite response to the tough questions of suffering you ask. Allow others to see God through the prism of our faith and trust in Him!

HP, I think that was an excellent post; thanks for writing it!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Are you interested in Biblical answers or "good" answers? Why should we be concerned with having a "good" answer for the African any more than the American affluent mother who lost her child to a rare genetic muscular disease? Does social strata and geographical difference make any difference to death of any child anywhere?

What difference does it make when and how an infant or toddler dies? Why do babies die period? Isn't it God who appoints the time of death (Heb. 9:27)? Does God provide in the Scriptures more than one reason for death? Certainly, one may argue there is more than one reason why God appoints a specific time for death but one cannot deny there is but one Biblical reason for death (Rom. 5:12).

Why did God order the Israelites to exterminate infants of the Canaanites? One may argue (as I do) that God is merciful in killing infants, because death denies them the opportunity to mature where they can willfully refuse him and willfully accumulate individual sins to be accountable at the day of judgement, if you believe dying infants are safe from eternal wrath before the age of accountability.

Well, now I think I've heard it all, and on a Christian forum, no less! So let's all go to every abortion clinic we can find, and, instead of picketing them, cheer them on for doing the work of the Lord! Hallelujah!

Praise God, I've been enlightened! And all this time I've opposed Planned Parenthood, abortion, and infanticide when I should have been donating monthly to the cause of God's mercy!

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, now I think I've heard it all, and on a Christian forum, no less! So let's all go to every abortion clinic we can find, and, instead of picketing them, cheer them on for doing the work of the Lord! Hallelujah!

Praise God, I've been enlightened! And all this time I've opposed Planned Parenthood, abortion, and infanticide when I should have been donating monthly to the cause of God's mercy!

You ridicule simply advertises your own ignorance of scripture. Isn't it God that appoints the time of death - Heb. 9:27?

Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

Job 30:23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.




Does not God forbid any man to usurp that perorgative

- Gen. 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


CONCLUSION: God has the right to take life and He alone appoints the time when life is taken. Man has no such right. So much for your ridicule!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You ridicule simply advertises your own ignorance of scripture. Isn't it God that appoints the time of death - Heb. 9:27?

And your attack simply advertises your ignorance -- period.

 

[The Biblicist]

And your attack simply advertises your ignorance -- period.

Oh really? Then why couldn't you respond to the scriptures I gave to back up those attacks?

You are the typical elitist who can't back up what they say and so you just redicule your opponent.

Well, put up or shut up!

1. The Bible does teach that God appoints the time of every human being's death including infants.

2. The Bible forbids humans to abort babies or adults.

3. Hence, your rediculous charge is proven to be false

 

[DHK]

(Rev 1:18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

It is Christ that has the keys of hell and death.
He alone can give life; he alone can take it away.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Oh really? Then why couldn't you respond to the scriptures I gave to back up those attacks?

You are the typical elitist who can't back up what they say and so you just redicule your opponent.

Well, put up or shut up!

1. The Bible does teach that God appoints the time of every human being's death including infants.

2. The Bible forbids humans to abort babies or adults.

3. Hence, your rediculous charge is proven to be false

Perhaps I don't want to be a Pharisee.

I am not an elitist, and I assure you I can back up what I say -- anything and everything I say.

Besides, your points 1 and 2 above have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

What is ridiculous and unbelievably abhorrent is this statement of yours: "Why did God order the Israelites to exterminate infants of the Canaanites? One may argue (as I do) that God is merciful in killing infants, because death denies them the opportunity to mature where they can willfully refuse him and willfully accumulate individual sins to be accountable at the day of judgement, if you believe dying infants are safe from eternal wrath before the age of accountability."

Now that is depraved, as I pointed out before, with sarcasm.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I heard that when Steve Jobs was young, he asked his pastor if God saw the suffering, starving children of Africa. His pastor said yes, and Steve left the church and did not return.

An Episcopal priest friend of mine once told me that of all non-believers he had encountered -- not just non-Christians, but atheists and agnostics -- the number one reason for their unbelief was suffering. If there is a God, and He is all-powerful, good, and merciful, why doesn't He do something about suffering, especially suffering of the innocent.

If someone raised this question and concern with you, how would you answer?

I know we live in a fallen world, but that doesn't seem to be a sufficient answer or explanation -- if God has the characteristics which we attribute to Him.

Its a good question. I like C.S. Lewis' book the problem of pain and I recommend it to you. But God allowing suffering only makes sense in a world view where people have freedom of choice. Also, I think the christian practice of offering up their suffering for others has died out. I think our society is too obsessed about pleasure. Pleasure isn't what God necissarily wants for us but Joy and Joy can be found in our suffering.

 

[The Biblicist]

Perhaps I don't want to be a Pharisee.

I am not an elitist, and I assure you I can back up what I say -- anything and everything I say.

Besides, your points 1 and 2 above have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

What is ridiculous and unbelievably abhorrent is this statement of yours: "Why did God order the Israelites to exterminate infants of the Canaanites? One may argue (as I do) that God is merciful in killing infants, because death denies them the opportunity to mature where they can willfully refuse him and willfully accumulate individual sins to be accountable at the day of judgement, if you believe dying infants are safe from eternal wrath before the age of accountability."

Now that is depraved, as I pointed out before, with sarcasm.

Do you deny that God ordered the Israelites to exterminate the infants of the Canaanites?

If not, then, you justify God's order to kill infants with his grace, mercy and love and justice?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Do you deny that God ordered the Israelites to exterminate the infants of the Canaanites?

If not, then, you justify God's order to kill infants with his grace, mercy and love and justice?

Yes, I do. Anything that runs counter to the teachings and example of Jesus does not come from God.

 

[billwald]

>Anything that runs counter to the teachings and example of Jesus does not come from God.

Including most of the OT?

 

[mandym]

Yes, I do. Anything that runs counter to the teachings and example of Jesus does not come from God.

Deu 20:12 But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it.
Deu 20:13 And when the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword,
Deu 20:14 but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you.
Deu 20:15 Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here.
Deu 20:16 But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes,
Deu 20:17 but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded,
Deu 20:18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

>Anything that runs counter to the teachings and example of Jesus does not come from God.

Including most of the OT?

I don't find that most of the OT does that, just some of the parts from the priestly tradition. it is quite clear that Jesus and His teachings sprang from the OT prophets, as well as the Essene community. Isn't it ironic, but not coincidental, that Jesus was most violently opposed by the Jewish priesthood?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Deu 20:12 But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it.
Deu 20:13 And when the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword,
Deu 20:14 but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you.
Deu 20:15 Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here.
Deu 20:16 But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes,
Deu 20:17 but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded,
Deu 20:18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God.

Quote all you want and then try to reconcile that with the teachings of Jesus. I could quote the direct words of Jesus, but I don't suppose there is a need for that -- or do I wrongly assume that you know those words?

 

[targus]

All suffering is the result of the sin of Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve had not sinned we would still be living in the Garden and not know anything about suffering.

Most suffering in the world today is the product of man - either due to our own actions or inactions.

If all people loved each other and loved God according to God's will then there would be no starvation in the world. We would all be feeding God's sheep with both spiritual and physical food.

But we don't because we are all flawed.

God doesn't step in to stop the starvation because it isn't His responsibility or making - it is ours.

If the Steve Jobs story is true then instead of leaving the church he should have started working to feed the hungry.

If the story is true it's a pity because Steve Jobs died with a whole lot of money that could have been used to feed the poor while he was still living.

 

[mandym]

Quote all you want and then try to reconcile that with the teachings of Jesus. I could quote the direct words of Jesus, but I don't suppose there is a need for that -- or do I wrongly assume that you know those words?

It doesn't matter what you think you can reconcile. The words are there and God's Word is true.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

It doesn't matter what you think you can reconcile. The words are there and God's Word is true.

Yes, the words of Jesus are true, and, since He is the Author of our faith, I prefer to follow his teachings and example. If you are more comfortable with Jewish priestism, perhaps you should convert.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

All suffering is the result of the sin of Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve had not sinned we would still be living in the Garden and not know anything about suffering.

Most suffering in the world today is the product of man - either due to our own actions or inactions.

If all people loved each other and loved God according to God's will then there would be no starvation in the world. We would all be feeding God's sheep with both spiritual and physical food.

But we don't because we are all flawed.

God doesn't step in to stop the starvation because it isn't His responsibility or making - it is ours.

If the Steve Jobs story is true then instead of leaving the church he should have started working to feed the hungry.

If the story is true it's a pity because Steve Jobs died with a whole lot of money that could have been used to feed the poor while he was still living.

This is a good post; I agree 100%!

Thank you for an intelligent and reasonable response.

 

[mandym]

Yes, the words of Jesus are true, and, since He is the Author of our faith, I prefer to follow his teachings and example. If you are more comfortable with Jewish priestism, perhaps you should convert.

So just to be clear, you deny the truthfulness of the Old Testament?