Suing People!

[latterrain77]

If what you say is absolutely always true - Why did Paul appeal to Caesar? In effect, Paul was appealing his case to the highest court in the Roman Empire. I think the principle is the same. Granted, Paul had been falsely accused and dragged into court by nonbelievers but he exercised all of his "rights" as a Roman Citizen in the pursuit of justice.

Hi hardsheller. Actually, the verses you mention seem to support Blackbird's position. Paul did not sue anyone. He defended himself in a claim made against him (different). Do you think it's meaningful that Paul did NOT make a legal claim against his accusers for damages after his defense trial ended? latterrain77

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Would you sue or not?

Yes, absolutely. Let the courts resolve the situation. That's what they're there for. Just ask the family of Ron Goldman.

To not sue would be enabling the transgressor to do wrong, which would be unbiblical.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Do you follow the laws of the land? Are you held accountable if you brake the law? That's all I'm trying to say. Christians shouldn't think that the laws are only for non-beleivers, they are for everyone. I don't see how it's wrong to hold a professional who has misused his authority to harm, accountable. Isn't the first line in the hypocratic oath "First do no harm"?

Yes, of course God will handle this. But where in the Bible does it say that we are to be completely complacent and not let him use us to handle this?

People have always been held accountable for their actions, Biblically. God may be behind who gets punished, but he used people more often than not to do it.

 

[blackbird]

WisdomSeeker--I just believe with all my heart that there are ways out there that folks can hold those accountable--other than gettin' "sue" happy and suitin' the pants off of a doctor because he miss diagnosed the stran of cold I had, or suein' the resteraunt cause I found a bug in the salad I was fixin' to eat, or suiin' the playground equipment company cause of some bolt that fell off and scuffed my boys knees when he let go--or suein' the airline for somethin' I should have been watchin' out for in the first place--

We have become a bunch of "sue happy" citizens--suin' McDonald's cause their coffee was too hot and it scalded me when I had it sittin' in my lap and I braked and spilled it on me--

I've drink coffee from there all the time--lots of times it peels the hide clean off my tongue, sore for a week--but when that happens, guess what?? I'm back in the next day for another cup--I know this time I can't gulp it so fast!!

There are other ways we can hold a doctor accountable besides suitin' for damages---petition for his license removal, for starters. Passin' the word around that he's a "quack" hurts him more than takin' him to "the cleaners"--when we take him to "the cleaners" we ain't doin' nothin' but "milkin'" his insurance company anyway--we ain't ruinin' him--or his reputation--we're puttin' a red spot in the ledger of his insurance company--he can go on seein' his patients, doin' open heart, administerin' chemo as an oncologist, or whatever--while his(the doctor's) insurance agent handles it from his office in the downtown highrise!

When I write that we should obey 1 Corinthians 6--I mean that we don't have to keep quiet about it--just find ways besides draggin' him into a heathen court to suit our welms and wishes.

see what I mean??

Your buddy,
Blackbird

[ July 24, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by blackbird:
I just believe with all my heart that there are ways out there that folks can hold those accountable

What if all other options have been exhausted? If a Christian runs a light and hits my car and causes 5,000 in damages, and doesn't acknowlege his wrongdoing, you bet I'm suing him for $5,000. The alternative you suggest would be to go around town badmouthing him. That's biblically forbidden as well.

other than gettin' "sue" happy

No one's saing sue at the first sign of trouble, but it's not inappropriate when all other methods of resolving the dispute have been exhausted.

and suitin' the pants off of a doctor because he miss diagnosed the stran of cold I had,

You'd only have a case if there were negligence. Misdiagnosing, when the diagnosis is supported by the evidence, is not negligence. You could sue, but you'd lose.

or suein' the resteraunt cause I found a bug in the salad I was fixin' to eat,

If the restaurant didn't refund your cost of the salad, you could recover the cost of the food, but nothing more.

or suiin' the playground equipment company cause of some bolt that fell off and scuffed my boys knees when he let go

If the bolt/nut fell off due to improper installation or manufacture, you could recover damages. If the damages were not caused by negligence, then you could sue, but you'd lose.

--or suein' the airline for somethin' I should have been watchin' out for in the first place--

You'd lose your suit.

suin' McDonald's cause their coffee was too hot

Actually, I did some research oon that. It turns out that the McDonald's in question heated their coffee to more than 20 degrees hotter than typical coffee. The burns in question were caused because of the additional temperature, of which most consumers were unaware.

Passin' the word around that he's a "quack"
That would be engaging in rumor and gossip... biblically forbidden.

he can go on seein' his patients, doin' open heart, administerin' chemo as an oncologist, or whatever--while his(the doctor's) insurance agent handles it from his office in the downtown highrise!
Actually, a Doctor is forbidden from practicing in multiple cases of malpractice suits.

..a heathen court to suit our welms and wishes.
The court system, first of all, is not "heathen". It's secular, but not heathen. Second, it doesn't suit our whims and wishes. We can sue for a million dollars, but we must prove our damages. If I have $5,000 damages done to my car, and I sue for $100,000, guess what? I'm only going to be awarded $5,000. Seeking resolution in court is simply having a judge resolve a dispute that cannot otherwise be resolved. A judge simply forces the parties in court to do what they should have done in the first place. This is not heathen in any way.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Originally posted by blackbird:
WisdomSeeker--I just believe with all my heart that there are ways out there that folks can hold those accountable--other than gettin' "sue" happy and suitin' the pants off of a doctor because he miss diagnosed the stran of cold

David, that isn't what we're talking about now is it? Gina isn't thinking of suing a doctor because he misdiagnosed a cold. And I would hardly think of Gina as someone who would be "sue happy". Come on.... be fair. I wasn't talking about sueing over every little inconsequential thing at all.

I think this is pretty major...and if you've followed little Anna's history, you know this isn't the first time that she's gotten the raw end of the deal.

Furthermore, I disagree. A doctor who's been sued for malpractice is going to get more than a red dot or however you put it on his insurance record. He's going to lose patients, he might even lose his job with the hospital. This is how you petition for a licence to be revoked. So, I beg to differ about how little it would do.

 

[gb93433]

Yas a prudent builder would operate in installments or draws. When I was a builder there was no way I could have covered some of the losses I would have sustained should someone have not paid me. I worked for a business that would audit people before that agreed to sell them product on account.

Another person I know paid the contractor for materials and labor but the lumber company had not been paid. So the lumber company attached a lien on the property.

One thing a person can do is to make sure that the contractor is properly bonded and that they personally make one check for the materials to the materials supplier and another to the contractor for the remainder of the contract. It is done all the time. Never once have I ever been asked if the person could pay this way though. Not have I been asked to secure a larger bond other than governmental agencies.

 

[dianetavegia]

The company my husband works for now is having to have a Baptist Preacher in Atlanta arrested for writing bad checks and closing down a store while owing another $16,000. for inventory. My husband went out several times at night and waited for this guy to come and give him the cash to cover the checks.... but he never showed up. Now he's moved out of his house and is living in a cheap hotel.

What else can they do? The total comes to about $21,000. This will mean jail time for this guy! Oh Well, he told Jim he had a prison ministry and now he WILL for sure! They can have him put in jail for the bad checks but have to sue to try and get the other $16,000.

Diane

 

[N Carolyne]

I don't think lawsuits are the answer at all. Anyone who thinks they are legitimate seems to have bought into the litigious, 'just give me money and everything's okay' attitude that our culture has become.
Wrongful death suits place price tags on our lives, damages for negligence is like stating that everyone must pay out the nose for their mistakes, (is this what Jesus expects us to do?) Punitive damages means just what it says- punishment for wrongdoing in the form of monetary compensation (and just how much do we owe God? and what about forgiveness?)
I have a difficult time believing that the motivation behind ANY lawsuit is anything more than punishment and greed. Are these Christian characteristics?
If you've been wronged, pray. After all, "vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord." And also; "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek turn to him the other also."
And of course we have the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Love your neighbor as yourself. Honestly, is there any soul on this board that can say they wouldn't mind being sued?
Just how does dragging someone to court fit any of these scriptures? I've seen a lot of sentences in this thread beginning with " Yes I know what the Bible states about lawsuits but what about this situation....' Sounds like rationalizing to me. Very similar to "yes I know what the Bible says about murder / adultery / lying.. but what about this siutation....

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by N Carolyne:
Honestly, is there any soul on this board that can say they wouldn't mind being sued?

Christians should not be frivolously ligigous, but likewise, Christians should not be litigiphobic, either. If I live my life accordingly, I won't give anyone reason to sue me. If, otoh, I transgress against someone and don't make proper reparations (which, as Christians, we're required to do), then, yes, I would expect to get sued. If I fail to pay my rent, my landlord has every right, legally and morally, to sue me for the rent, since I've in effect stolen from him/her, and he/she is legally and morally entitled to the rent money. If I fail to pay my credit card bill, same thing. Bottom line is, if I fail to live morally, then I can expect consequences.

 

[N Carolyne]

John, I suppose you never make mistakes? Are you the perfect Christian we're all striving to be? In effect, you're saying that anyone who gets sued probably deserves it, correct? You don't believe there are any opportunists out there looking for a quick buck?
Example:
My child is accidently hit and killed by someone not paying attention. I sue them for wrongful death and win 5 million dollars. Not only have I allowed a jury of 12 strangers to decide how much my child was worth, I myself have devalued my child's life by trying to replace him/her with money. The person driving the car is not the one who will pay me the settlement, the insurance company will. It's always insurance companies that cover damages, not the individuals themselves. And guess who the insurance companies pass these fees on to? Me and you, that's who. By suing that driver I haven't accomplised a thing but raising your insurance rates to pay for my "grief." Is this the behavior that Christians should model?
It's sickening what goes on in courtrooms these days.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by N Carolyne:
John, I suppose you never make mistakes?

Yes, I make mistakes. When I make a mistake, I'm expected as a Christian to pay for the mistake.

Are you the perfect Christian we're all striving to be?

No, I'm the imperfect Christian striving to be the perfect Christian we all strive to be.

In effect, you're saying that anyone who gets sued probably deserves it, correct?

No, I'm saying anyone who is sued and loses probably deserves it, because they failed to rectify their mistake.

You don't believe there are any opportunists out there looking for a quick buck?

Yes, but if they don't have a case, they won't win.

Example:
My child is accidently hit and killed by someone not paying attention. I sue them for wrongful death and win 5 million dollars. Not only have I allowed a jury of 12 strangers to decide how much my child was worth, I myself have devalued my child's life by trying to replace him/her with money. The person driving the car is not the one who will pay me the settlement, the insurance company will. It's always insurance companies that cover damages, not the individuals themselves. And guess who the insurance companies pass these fees on to? Me and you, that's who. By suing that driver I haven't accomplised a thing but raising your insurance rates to pay for my "grief." Is this the behavior that Christians should model?
It's sickening what goes on in courtrooms these days.

Then what you're saying is that insurance is sinful. I guess we should all go out and cancel our insurance. After all, if you get in an accident, and your insurance company pays for the damage to your car, my rates will go up because of your faulty driving. Whether or not someone has insurance has no bering on whether or not they're responsible (be it morally or legally) for damages.

As for your "5 million dollar" scenario, first of all, if it was an accident and there was no malice, you won't win 5 million. Additionally, my insurance company covers me up to a certain dollar amount (I believe it's 25,000). If you are awarded more, then the rest comes out of my pocket, not my insurance company.

Additionally, as far as "cheapening" life, I have three children, and I have life insurance on all of them. is it therefore a sin for me to collect the insurance money if they die? Are you telling all the parents on this board to cancel our life insurance policies where dependents are covered?

But let me ask the bottom line question? Was it wrong for the Goldman family to sue the OJ Simpson estate for wrongful death?

[ July 25, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[blackbird]

Laurenda--I certainly understand Gina's plight and can understand the line drawn in the sand thing.

My mom endured six years of cancer and the last year of her life went through triple bypass--she died in my eyes "unexpectedly"--oh, we knew something was wrong--but we take her to Cardiologist and he says, "Its her cancer!" We go to the Oncologist and he says, "Its her heart!" She passes away and the cardiologist nor the oncologist never were able to "pen something down" so we'll never know what exactly caused it--nor will we ever know if the Cardiologist may have been right or wrong or the Oncologist--I mean, it was like the Cardiologist shows us the heart pictures taken with the cath video camera--heart pumpin' like a mule! The Oncologist shows us the pictures of her lungs--cancer free--no body had a clue, so it seems but could somebody have done something and why did they not try to do something--we'll never know and will never pursue(per my, my sister and brother's choice)

But its a wild, wild world out there, Wizzy--you know that---lots of "nuts" out there that'll sue if you look at um "cross eyed"---my wife has a cousin who sued a supermarket for "slippin' on a wet floor"--won the blasted settlement--blew the money he received--and then had the "gall" to ask Miriam's dad one evening--"James! I need $1500 bucks for this little operation I'm havin'!" Now, that just burns me up!! It does, too!! Does it you??

I don't believe that believers are to allow themselves to be "push overs"--If Gina's girl has been wronged--I feel sure that she can pursue the matter in a peacful Jesus lovin' way---but neither do I believe that believers should act as unbecoming of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ when they seek to pursue legal matters. They can seek restitution without "running over" anyone like they are full of pride and themselves. Can't they??

Your buddy,
Blackbird

 

[dianetavegia]

Gina, I don't think you have reason to sue. I do think the doctor could be reported to the AMA tho.

Diane

 

[cheerfreakus]

People need to take responsiblity for their OWN actions and not blame what they did on other people!
In Christ Name
Ashley

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

David, I get what you're saying and I agree with you.

For instance, my mother in law had recently had to have surgery on her back for a colapsed disk. She had a stroke this past weekend. I told my husband that I bet it was a blood clot from that operation that caused the stroke. He said as much to the doctor and he said, "Your wife is right" The question my husband had was why if they knew it was a risk did they not keep a better eye on her? I said to him "Because Doctors are human and they can't always catch everything"

I'm not in any way saying that anyone should become sue happy...I'm just saying that if there is any problem that resulted because of lnegligence, arrogance or any other reason that was more than simple human falliblitity then they should be held accountable for their actions.

Now, you think that Gina shouldn't sue,and I disagree. That's all. In the end I would bet that Gina will go to extraordinary lengths to deal with this with suing being the last resort.

When push comes to shove, some people overexagerate and go to extraordinary lengths to make something big out of something small. But I think that when something big happens and it can't be resolved any other way, it should not be made small by letting it go.

"Do you get me sweatheart?" Jack Nicholson

If it were me, I would do everything I could before hiring a lawyer. I've never hired a lawyer for anything so far. I don't actully like the legal system, I stay as far away from it as I can. But if I needed to use it to make things right, I would. Much as I would hate to, I would.

 

[blackbird]

Laurenda--I see!

Glad you are my friend!

Have a good weekend, you and Brother Dan!

Your brother,
David