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Sunday Sabbath

Iconoclast

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Biblicist

Thank you for the correct biblical response. Some just don't want to see it.Much unbiblical thought here on God's law.
 

~JM~

Member
an·ti·no·mi·an

1. of or relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.

Is the sabbath "moral law?" If it is and you do not believe it is an obligation...well...

I am familiar with the Reformed sabbatarian view(s) (both Presbyterian and Continental) but am not convinced. Espeically after reading the work edited by D. A. Carson From Sabbath to Lord's Day. It's over 400 pages of tiny print explaining, for example, how the English Puritans came to believe in a Sunday "Sabbath."

I recommend it.

===>For those who want to understand how 1689 Reformed Baptists come to understand the Christian "sabbath" Dr. Gonzales has posted a short article on the subject.

http://drbobgonzales.com/2014/01/27/how-i-justify-a-first-day-christian-sabbath/

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: For the record I am NOT New Covenant. I believe in 1689 Federalism.
 

The Biblicist

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I understand the argumentation so just give me the Cliff Notes: if you reject what is called the Christian Sabbath is that person antinomian?

The earliest and most prominent Baptist Confessions teach the "Christian Sabbath" is Sunday. London Confession of 1688; Philadelphia Baptist Confession; New Hampshire Baptist Confession.

The Sabbath under the New Covenant is not under Mosaic legislation or the Levitical law. The Sabbath Law never states it is the seventh day "OF THE WEEK". It is merely a pattern of seven days wherein it is preceded by six working days with the seventh day as the Sabbath which precedes six working days. It does not matter what day "OF THE WEEK" it might be placed as six working days precede it and six working days follow it and thus it is always the Seventh day Sabbath in relationship to six working days.

The greater work of redemption has made the first day "of the week" a fixed "Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10). There is no legalism or antinomianism about it. It is just what it is - "the Lord's Day" set apart (sanctified) unto the Lord and the spirit of its observation is found in Isaiah 59:12 and Psalm 118:24 while the practice of it is found in 1 Cor. 12-14 on the first day of the week (1 Cor. 16:1-2).

We are under grace not law.
 

The Biblicist

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Is the sabbath "moral law?" If it is and you do not believe it is an obligation...well...

I am familiar with the Reformed sabbatarian view(s) (both Presbyterian and Continental) but am not convinced. Espeically after reading the work edited by D. A. Carson From Sabbath to Lord's Day. It's over 400 pages of tiny print explaining, for example, how the English Puritans came to believe in a Sunday "Sabbath."

I recommend it.

===>For those who want to understand how 1689 Reformed Baptists come to understand the Christian "sabbath" Dr. Gonzales has posted a short article on the subject.

http://drbobgonzales.com/2014/01/27/how-i-justify-a-first-day-christian-sabbath/

That does not explain how the Philadelphia Baptists and the New Hampshire Baptists came to that position. I have owned Carson's book for years and it has flaws. The basic flaw is the failure to understand the Lord's own application of SAbbath Law.
 

~JM~

Member
I understand the importance of confessions and creeds. When your confession or creed isn't share by a majority of the church it might be time to reconsider it in light of scripture. The 1689 is held by a minority of Baptists (including myself with a few exceptions) and probably shouldn't be used as a norm for Christians or even Baptists. It is the norm for 1689 Reformed Baptists but not all Baptists or even all Particular Baptists.

I believe Dr. Bob's article to be the best explanation of the Reformed view. He doesn't waste time arguing but demonstrates his reasoning.

jm
 

The Biblicist

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I understand the importance of confessions and creeds. When your confession or creed isn't share by a majority of the church it might be time to reconsider it in light of scripture. The 1689 is held by a minority of Baptists (including myself with a few exceptions) and probably shouldn't be used as a norm for Christians or even Baptists. It is the norm for 1689 Reformed Baptists but not all Baptists or even all Particular Baptists.

I believe Dr. Bob's article to be the best explanation of the Reformed view. He doesn't waste time arguing but demonstrates his reasoning.

jm

This is not an issue that hangs on any confession. However, neither Dr. Bob nor you can deny that the New Hampshire and the Philadelphia Confessions were received by the vast majority of Baptists in America during the 1700-1800's.

The issue is how God Himself applied the Sabbath Law. Leviticus 23-25 are Messianic feasts and there is a clear transition from emphasis on the "seventh" to "first" days (1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th) all of which occur after the multiple of sevenths. He applies it to greater lengths than 24 hours.

There is no moral basis for a selected period of time. There is a numerical moral basis. The Old Covenatn emphasized a the Seventh division of time in regard to the Sabbath while the New Covenant emphasizes the First division of time and this can be clearly seen in the Messianic Feasts anticipating the New covenant.

The "old" Covenant Sabbath commemorated a sin cursed creation and typical redemption out of Egypt (Ex. 20; Deut. 5) while the "new" Covenant Sabbath commemorates the antitype redemptive work of the cross and the new creation yet to come or the eternal 8th day.

The gospel was preached and received at the time of Moses (Heb. 4:1-2) but not among those who rebelled in the wilderness. Those who received the gospel entered into SPIRITUAL REST IN CHRIST but still observed a literal 24 hour Sabbath day. Why? Because they had not yet entered into the complete fulfillment of the Sabbath - SPIRITUAL, SOULISH and BODILY rest or the completed work of redemption in Christ in a NEW heaven and earth.
 

Iconoclast

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Is the sabbath "moral law?" If it is and you do not believe it is an obligation...well...

I am familiar with the Reformed sabbatarian view(s) (both Presbyterian and Continental) but am not convinced. Espeically after reading the work edited by D. A. Carson From Sabbath to Lord's Day. It's over 400 pages of tiny print explaining, for example, how the English Puritans came to believe in a Sunday "Sabbath."

I recommend it.

===>For those who want to understand how 1689 Reformed Baptists come to understand the Christian "sabbath" Dr. Gonzales has posted a short article on the subject.

http://drbobgonzales.com/2014/01/27/how-i-justify-a-first-day-christian-sabbath/

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: For the record I am NOT New Covenant. I believe in 1689 Federalism.

JM:applause::applause:
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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I agree with PinoyBaptist - Antinomian believes that Grace approves of licentiousness. I think that would go further than being carnal.

In my estimation, a carnal Christian is one who ignores God's will, ignores the Spirit of God, and is led by the flesh, caring nothing for holiness.

Whereas an Antinomian is determinatively set against holiness.

I think it would be like the difference between apathy and hate

I saw a clip where RC Sproul is accusing people from Dallas TS of being Antinomian...so this is a little confusing to me.
 

JamesL

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I saw a clip where RC Sproul is accusing people from Dallas TS of being Antinomian...so this is a little confusing to me.

That's because Sproul and other Reformed Philosophers are being totally disingenuous about the Dispensationalist's view of works. I'm not sure if this is the clip you're referring to:

http://5ptsalt.com/2013/11/04/r-c-s...an-the-sinners-prayer-and-more-antinomianism/

It is impossible to be as studied as he is and not comprehend what Dispensationalists teach. Since he misrepresents the view, I believe he is being dishonest and deceitful.

His label of Antinomian is nothing short of crooked, where he is intentionally spreading slander and libel.

Consider this article from Sproul's Ligonier Ministries, with material from John Gerstner:

http://www.ligonier.org/blog/antinomian-way-justification/

Same drivel as Sproul, the Antinomian label is thrown around a half dozen times in the first couple of paragraphs. Yet, consider this paragraph:

.....it does not mean that the adherents of this school are opposed to good works. It does not mean that it encourages people to do bad works or to regard works as something that they can casually neglect. On the contrary, they themselves are often zealots for good works. They always stress the advisability of good works. Good works are absolutely necessary for rewards. These preachers mightily urge people to abound in good works so that they may have an abundant reward in the world to come. Abounding in the works of the Lord, they teach, promotes a sense of blessedness and joy in the Lord even in this world. The absence of good works will disturb our fellowship with God. As long as they are lacking fellowship with the Savior, it is impossible to have peace, joy, or fruitfulness. If this continues, there will be embarrassment at the bema (judgment seat of Christ). In other words, antinomians usually enthusiastically urge Christians to do many, many, many good works in the service of the Lord Jesus Christ, and confidently promise them that they will receive a heavenly reward for every one of them, as well as present overflowing joy in the Lord. “Minus” here does not mean a negative attitude toward works. These antinomians are often quite positive in their emphasis and their practice.

The above paragraph is absolute proof of the misuse of the Antinomian label. Antinomians teach that Grace has given us a license to sin - eat, drink and be merry. No Law, so no worries. Do what you want, there's no foul when you're inside of Grace.

Yet Gerstner wrote that the Dispensational view encourages good works.

His charge of Antinomianism is nothing but a scare tactic, like a charge of heresy. Who would want to embrace Antinomian theology? Who would want to embrace heresy? That's all this charge amounts to. Can't defend against them on scriptural grounds? No problem, just charge them with heresy in order to give his position credibility.

But if his position is biblical, it doesn't need dishonest charges of heresy. It should be able to stand on its own merits. Very telling, indeed.

Here is a really objective article by a (seemingly) Reformed believer that addresses some of this Antinomian charge:

http://davestheology.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/31/
 

kyredneck

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Old school Dispensationalism is antinomian. Guys like MacArthur have corrected the error.

Could you briefly enlighten me as to what MacArthur has done to correct the error of antinomianism in Dispensationalism?

I'm really curious to know.
 

JamesL

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Old school Dispensationalism is antinomian. Guys like MacArthur have corrected the error.

Well I guess that settles it. Discussion over, right?

You think his attempt to blend Lordship Soteriology with Pseudo-Dispensational eschatology corrects the whole thing, huh?
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Well I guess that settles it. Discussion over, right?

You think his attempt to blend Lordship Soteriology with Pseudo-Dispensational eschatology corrects the whole thing, huh?

Big terms....you gotta be one of the ones studying all this crap.....and it is crap. Is this what the freaking seminaries teach today? Then they are as bad....no, worse than the Catholics with rheir mysticism BS. When you guys going to get off your high horses and start being Christians?

James....this Sproul guys in it for the money and God knows where Macarther stands. Its all horse manure. You know better than to be sucked up into it.

ure
 

JamesL

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Big terms....you gotta be one of the ones studying all this crap.....and it is crap. Is this what the freaking seminaries teach today? Then they are as bad....no, worse than the Catholics with rheir mysticism BS. When you guys going to get off your high horses and start being Christians?
That's probably a fair criticism in some regards. I like to say that some people have too much college and not enough Kindergarten.

There is definitely a need for these issues to be hashed out and understood. But not simply for the sake of academics. When these issues are studied, I believe it should be brought out of the seminary, put into layman's terms and taught in the churches.

Unfortunately, many of these seminary issues are kept from lay people. It's like a secret sect of seminary Pharisees who are so proud of their intellectual accomplishments, and all they ever do is pat each other on the back and endorse each others books.

And the lay people suffer from lack of understanding because of it.


James....this Sproul guys in it for the money and God knows where Macarther stands. Its all horse manure. You know better than to be sucked up into it.

I appreciate your concern, brother. Really I do. I studied a lot for about 10 years, read countless books, etc

But a few years ago, I left all the books and opinions of men and got back to the simplicity of scripture. It's really been amazingly refreshing.

You could be right about Sproul, I don't know.
 
... and God knows where Macarther stands.
Yeah, if you ever figure out where that is, let us know, would'ya? I've got a friend at church who likes MacArthur, but rejects Calvinism. The Calvinists around here adore Calvin because they say he is a Calvinist. Somebody better figure out what the million-dollar pastor actually believes.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Yeah, if you ever figure out where that is, let us know, would'ya? I've got a friend at church who likes MacArthur, but rejects Calvinism. The Calvinists around here adore Calvin because they say he is a Calvinist. Somebody better figure out what the million-dollar pastor actually believes.

I don't make hero 's outa men.....they are too flawed. Rather I can respect a persons viewpoint but I also realize it is 'a view from a point. ' Christ is the only Lord....so that is the guy I look to. Take a look again at the Sermon on the Mount.
 
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