Sunday Sermons

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Acts 20
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.
8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together.
9 And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead.
10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him, he said, "" Do not be troubled, for his life is in him.''
11 When he had gone back up and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while until daybreak, and then left.

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Is Luke ignoring the Bible reckoning of time because he says “daybreak”??

#1. Luke does not say “the next day begins at daybreak”. Nor did Romans use such a system.
#2. Luke does not give the start time of this meeting. We do not know if it was prior to Sunset or after sunset. Prior to Sunset would mean that the “next day” was week-day-two and the bulk of the meeting was actually taking place on the evening of week-day-two.

Prophecynut said --
Luke was not ignoring Bible/Jewish reckoning of time, he was a Gentile educated in Greek culture and speaking in a Hellenistic city, he would of used the Roman method of reporting time.

Clean those Jewish cobwebs out of your head.

What a nice way to gloss over points 1 and 2 aobve!

Here they are again as they debunk your speculation about what Luke is doing "again".

#1. Luke does not say “the next day begins at daybreak”. Nor did Romans use such a system.

#2. Luke does not give the start time of this meeting. We do not know if it was prior to Sunset or after sunset. Prior to Sunset would mean that the “next day” was week-day-two and the bulk of the meeting was actually taking place on the evening of week-day-two.


I guess you have to read the points to respond.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 22
66 At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them.
67"If you are the Christ,[a]" they said, "tell us."

We know that Luke used the term “Daybreak” to mean “dawn” or morning – keeping in harmony with Jewish reckoning (neither Jews nor Romans started the day at dawn). He is perfectly consistent in speak of “Dawn” as daybreak in Luke 22 and observing that on Friday evening the Sabbath “was about to being”.


quote:
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Luke 23
54It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.

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Prophecynut said --
Luke was not ignoring Bible/Jewish reckoning of time, he was a Gentile educated in Greek culture

Surely you don't think SAbbath begins at "daybreak on Saturday morning"??!!!

 

[wopik]

Surely you don't think SAbbath begins at "daybreak on Saturday morning"??!!!

"Paul and his friends could not, as good Jews, start out on a journey on the Sabbath; they did so as soon after it as was possible, v.11, at dawn on the 'first day' - the Sabbath having ended at sunset."

 

[prophecynut]

Galatians 4:9-10
...."how is it that (Bob Ryan and Wopik) are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? (Bob Ryan and Wopik) are observing special days (sabbaths) and months, and seasons, and years."

 

[wopik]

Hello, prophecynut --

Galatians 4:9-10
...."how is it that (Bob Ryan and Wopik) are turning back to those weak and miserable principles?

First of all, in Galatians 4, Paul is speaking to pagan Gentile converts who never knew the true God (vs 8).

These Galatians were the same people whom Paul and Barnabas encountered in the Galatian cities of Lystra and Derby. These Galatian PAGANS thought Paul and Barnabas were their gods Mercury and Jupiter (Acts 14:6-16).

In Galatians 4:8, Paul makes reference to this by telling them "you did service unto them which by nature are NO gods." Mercury and Jupiter are NO gods.


Paul -- who calls the Commandments and Law of God holy, just and good (Romans 7:12, 25) -- would never refer to them as "weak and miserable principles" -- as you state.

Referring to the LORD's holidays (Lev. 23) and laws as weak and miserable is an insult to God who created them for our good.

(Bob Ryan and Wopik) are observing special days (sabbaths) and months, and seasons, and years

And you don't observe any special religious days?

Perhaps you forgot about Sunday, Good Friday, Easter, Christmas, Halloween, etc.......

 

[prophecynut]

http://www.gospelway.com/topics/bible/christian_sabbath.htmIt

It is true that God required the Israelites to keep the Sabbath under the Old Testament. However, the New Testament nowhere tells us that Christians should keep the Sabbath today.

The Sabbath was unquestionably the seventh day of the week. I realize there are many people who believe that Sunday (the first day of the week) is the "Christian Sabbath." However, there is simply no Bible evidence to substantiate such a view. If so, what would it be?

The Bible makes quite clear that the Sabbath was the seventh day of the week (Ex. 20:9,10). In the New Testament, however, Christians had the Lord's supper and the collection on the "first day of the week" (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1,2). No passage anywhere indicates that the first day of the week is a day of rest. Rather, it is a day on which we worship God by remembering Jesus' death, etc.

Since the "seventh day of the week" and the "first day of the week" are clearly two different days, it follows that the first day of the week is not and never has been a weekly "Sabbath" or day of rest.

Since some may still be confused, however, let us consider the evidence more closely. In order to be sure people understand what day the "seventh day of the week" Sabbath was, God specified in Ex. 20:8-11 that, when people did keep the Sabbath, it was the seventh day of the week. This is explained further by paralleling it to the fact God made all things in six days, then rested on the "seventh day." So the seventh day is clearly the last day of the week.

To make this even more clear, please look at the creation account in Gen. 1&2. Each day is counted, and we are told what God did on each day. Specifically, He made the light on "the first day" (1:3-5). After a total of six such days of creation, we are told that He ended His work and rested "on the seventh day" (2:1,2). Furthermore, 2:3 says he blessed the seventh day because it was the day on which He rested.

There can be no doubt about the meaning here. The "first day" means the day that begins the week, and the "seventh day" means the day that ends the week. There is simply no way that any day can be both the "seventh day" and the "first day of the week." They are two distinct days. To deny this would be to deny the plain statements of Scripture. Furthermore, it is clear that the Sabbath was the "seventh day," not the "first day."

To bind a Sabbath of any kind today is to bind what God expressly states should not be bound (see Colossians 2:14,16; cf. Hebrews 10:1-10; 8:6-13; 9:1-4; Galatians 3:24,25; 5:1-6). One may, of course, simply choose to rest on any day he wishes as a matter of personal preference, but he cannot properly do so as an act of obedience to any Divine command today.

But God does want us to worship Him on the "first day of the week," as shown above in Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor. 16:1,2. There is simply no way that "the first day of the week" can be the same day as "the seventh day of the week."

 

[prophecynut]

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/lords_supper_day.phpB.

The Significance of the First Day of the Week

Do other passages imply that the first day of the week has any special significance or not? Is there anything that would explain why God would want the church to assemble on the first day for the Lord's supper and collection?
Mark 16:9 - Jesus arose on the first day of the week.

The resurrection of Jesus is in many ways the greatest event in the history of the world. In many ways the crucifixion was as great, but the crucifixion would have been a defeat had it not been for the resurrection. The crucifixion left the disciples in sorrow and grief. The resurrection was the ultimate victory and cause of rejoicing.

Furthermore, no passage directly names the day of the week on which Jesus died, but all four gospel accounts tell us Jesus arose on the first day of the week, and all of them mention it repeatedly. Why this emphasis on the first day unless there is some significance to it? (Luke 24:1,4,21; Mk. 16:2; Matt. 26:1-7; Luke 24:1-9; John 20:1-10; see also the verses under the following points.)
John 20:19 - Jesus first appeared to His disciples on the first day of the week.

Jesus' appearances are also crucial to our faith, because by them He proved that He really is the Son of God (Rom. 1:4; 1 Cor. 15:1-8).

On that first day of the week after He had arisen, He appeared several times (Mark 16:2,9; Matt. 26:1,8-10; Luke 24:1,19-21; John 20:1,11-19). Note that one of these appearances occurred when the disciples had assembled. The disciples assembled on the first day of the week, because Jesus had arisen on that day. And Jesus Himself chose to come to that assembly (cf. Luke 24:33-40).
John 20:26 - The second day that Jesus appeared to the disciples was also a first day of the week.

Again we are told the disciples came together. This was the eighth day after the first appearances. The way days were counted would make this the next first day of the week (cf. Lev. 23:39).

So on the day Jesus arose the disciples assembled; then the next first day the disciples assembled again. On both occasions Jesus honored their assembly by coming Himself. Is this just coincidence?

You would not expect these passages to mention the Lord's supper, since the church had not yet begun. But if there is no significance to the fact these things happened on the first day of the week, why are we so expressly told the day when it happened?
Acts 2:1 - The day of Pentecost was a first day of the week (Lev. 23:15,16).

Note that the apostles had already gathered together on this day, even before they had any idea that the Holy Spirit would come then (cf. 1:1-11). But the Holy Spirit did come to their meeting. As a result many assembled together, the gospel was preached, and 3000 were baptized.

Note the great events that occurred on this first day of the week: (1) The Holy Spirit came. (2) The gospel was preached for the first time. (3) The first people were converted and became Christians. (4) The church began (cf. v47).

All this happened when the disciples were assembled together on the first day of the week. And from this time on they continued in, among other things, the Lord's supper (v42).
Acts 20:7 - The disciples came together on the first day of the week to break bread.

This may be the only time the Lord's supper is directly mentioned on the first day of the week, but it is certainly not the only passage that shows the first day of the week is significant. Nor is it the only passage that shows the disciples assembling on the first day of the week.
1 Corinthians 16:1,2 - The churches took up collections each first day of the week.

Together with all the other passages regarding the first day of the week and regarding Christians' assembling, this confirms that Christians assembled and took up the collection on that day.
Conclusions

Note the tremendous significance the first day of the week has to Christians.

Many of the greatest events in the history of the church occurred on that day. And of the events that occurred on that day, four of them involved Christians assembling on that day, and a fifth surely implies assembling. On two of these occasions, Jesus Himself attended those assemblies, and on another occasion the Holy Spirit attended. How can anyone doubt that the first day of the week has special significance in God's plan?

To see the force of this, consider what passages or events expressly name any other day of the week.

All these events, assemblies, and acts of worship are expressly mentioned as occurring on the first day of the week. But not one time is any other day of the week named as have any significance whatever to Christians. The second day of the week, third day, etc., are never even mentioned. The seventh day is mentioned, but only in connection with meetings of Jews, never in connection with meetings of Christians or events of special significance to Christians.

Some important events may have happened on other days, but never is any significance attached to the day. The day of the week is never named. Why all this emphasis on the first day, unless there is something special and significant about it?

So our study of other passages has turned up nothing to indicate the taking of the Lord's supper on the first day of the week in Acts 20:7 was just optional or coincidental. Nothing gives authority for having it any other day of the week.

In fact our study of other passages simply confirms the importance of the first day of the week. Considering these other passages, we are not surprised to see the disciples breaking bread on the first day of the week. We would be surprised to see it on any other day of the week.

The only day that has special significance for Christians is the first day of the week, and that is the only day on which we find Christians partaking of the Lord's supper.
CONCLUSION

Consider what we have learned in this study:

1) We must have Bible authority for all we do, and we must refuse to do that for which we have no Bible authority.

2) God's authority is revealed to us by examples and necessary inferences, as well as by commands.

3) God has always revealed the time and frequency for observing His special memorials and feasts.

4) The disciples were regular and diligent in having the Lord's supper and in assembling together.

5) The Lord's supper was eaten when the church was assembled.

6) Many major events in New Testament history occurred on the first day of the week.

7) Several passages mention Christians assembling on the first day of the week.

8) The Christians were commanded to give regularly on the first day of the week.

9) The disciples came together on the first day of the week to break bread.

10) The New Testament attaches no significance to any other day of the week, nor is there any indication the Lord's supper was eaten on any other day.

Conclusion: Bible authority teaches us to have the Lord's supper on each first day of the week. To have it any other day is to act without God's authority. Therefore, Christians must refuse to eat it on any other day.

And the Rapture will be on the first day of the week.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by wopik:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Surely you don't think SAbbath begins at "daybreak on Saturday morning"??!!!

"Paul and his friends could not, as good Jews, start out on a journey on the Sabbath; they did so as soon after it as was possible, v.11, at dawn on the 'first day' - the Sabbath having ended at sunset." </font>[/QUOTE]That is entirely possible (if the meeting began after sunset and so it was week-day-1 just after sunset which is Saturday night).

But if the meeting started just before sunset on week-day-one (That would be Sunday afternoon) then the main portion was on Sunday evening
(Weekday-two in the evening) and they would be leaving early on Monday morning.

Either way it is a problem because those who want to claim that "meeting" means Sabbath - will have a Saturday night meeting in the first scenario followed by travel all day on Sunday.

In the second scenario they will have a Sunday afternoon meeting followed by ALL evening meeting on weekday-2 (sunday evening) which means that the famous "meeting means holy" rule would make Monday a holy day by "man's tradition".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Man's tradition prompts us to celeberate the resurrection of Christ on a yearly basis on resurrection Sunday. This is certainly a wonderful tradition but is hardly a "weekly" event.

The only "weekly" cycle that mankind has - is the one that Christ the Creator gave us in Genesis 1-2:3. That is the ONLY "memorial" given to mankind on a weekly cycle.

The only reason that mankind would want to break that cycle and exchange Christ's own Holy Day for one of man's-own-making is that we have a problem with Christ the Creator's day and with His Law written on the heart. That problem is simply an error introduced into Christianity long after the Apostles died.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[wopik]

Hello, BobRyan

The only reason that mankind would want to break that cycle and exchange Christ's own Holy Day for one of man's-own-making is that we have a problem with Christ the Creator's day and with His Law written on the heart. That problem is simply an error introduced into Christianity long after the Apostles died.

http://www.vision.org/trdl/2001/trdl010420.html

 

[wopik]

Sunday

Christmas

Easter are all errors that crept into the Church and polluted it.


http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/sabbath_to_sunday/

 

[prophecynut]

SUNDAY - Originated with the apostles and prophets who built the Church foundation that you continue to rebel against.

CHRISTMAS, EASTER - Started by the apostate Roman Catholic Church.

The Sabbath was given to God's chosen people, the Israelites. Here's the proof:

Exodus 31:12-17 - Say to the Israelites "you must observe my Sabbatts."

Lev. 26:2 - "Observe my Sabbaths."

Isa. 56:4 - "eunuchs who keep my Sabbath."

Jer. 17:19-27 - "the people though which the Kings of Judah go in and out."

Ezk. 20:12,20 - "I gave them my Sabbaths." "Keep my Sabbaths holy."


Give me Scriptural poof that observance of the Sabbath was given to the Church.

 

[wopik]

Give me Scriptural poof that observance of the Sabbath was given to the Church.

The purpose behind most laws is clear, and that which lies behind the Old Testament commands about the Sabbath is evident.

Once this purpose is understood, it becomes obvious why no New Testament restatement of the basic command was necessary, or even likely.

The New Testament discussions and examples concern how to keep the Sabbath (in spirit rather than in a rigid, legalistic manner), not whether to keep it.


http://intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Seven.shtml


The most important New Testament statement on the Sabbath was spoken by Jesus Christ as quoted in Mark 2:27-28.


Jesus not only affirms the Sabbath command, He also instructs us about its purpose. "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath: therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." Thus, it is apparent that the Sabbath was made for men, for his spiritual and physical benefit.

 

[wopik]

Annual Holy Days that were ordered by God, kept by the ancient Israelites and continued by the early New Testament Christians.

These seven annual "appointed feasts" pictures God's plan of salvation for man.


http://www.intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Ten.shtml

 

[prophecynut]

wopic

I checked out the sites, all the references they give apply to the Israelites and not the Church.

The Church began in Acts 2 and ends in Rev.4:1; you must locate Scripture within these parameters. There are a few prophetic references to the Church in the OT but no commands to observed the Sabbath.

After checking again and the sites do reference Scriptures within the parameters, but no not give eplicit instructions or commands to the Church for observing the Sabbath.

[ June 17, 2005, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: prophecynut ]

 

[wopik]

SUNDAY - Originated with the apostles and prophets who built the Church foundation that you continue to rebel against.

These Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah continued to keep the Sabbath as a perpetual covenant - throughout their generations, as the LORD commanded.


The Sabbath has always been open to Gentiles (Isa 56: 1-8 / Acts 13: 42-44).


Paul bypassed a Sunday inorder to preach and meet with Gentiles a whole week later - on the following Sabbath (Acts 13: 42-44) -- to preach the grace of God (vs 43).

 

[prophecynut]

Wopik, you have not answered my request - where does Paul tell us to keep or observe the Sabbath?

There are Jews who have accepted Jesus who commemorate the Sabbath but not as a binding covenant like you think. Those who keep or observe it as a perpetual covenant, like some in the SDA church, have not accepted Christ as Savior or are born again.

Isa. 56 is fulfilled during the Millennium and is not applicable to Jews or Gentiles today. A brief commentary follows:


v.1 - "My righteouness will soon be revealed" is the coming of Christ to set up his kingdom on earth.

v.4-6 - Foreigners or Gentiles who keep the Sabbath during the Millennium will be honored in his temple. The Sabbath does not apply to Gentiles today or in Isaiah's time for they are excluded under the Mosaic Law (Deu. 23:1).

v.7 - "my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations" - This can only happen during the Millennium. The "house of prayer" is the Millennial Temple (Eze.40-48).

v.8 - He who gathers the exiles of Israel: " I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered." Those already gathered are the Jews presently in Israel (Eze. 38:8,27), who survive the Tribulation. At the Second Coming "still other" Jews will be gathered for the Millennium (Eze. 28:25-26), and are the elect of Mt. 24:31.

Although Paul was a Jew he was not bound by the OT law and religious practices. For the sake of winning Jews to Christ he conformed to the Jewish law and interacted with them in the synagogues and on the Sabbath. Paul became "all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some (1 Cor. 9:20,22).

I'm not going to ask you again, where is the proof that the Church must adhere to the Sabbath?

Gentiles are excluded from the Mosaic Law, why do comply with the Sabbath and expect others to?

 

[tamborine lady]

Acts 13-42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.(Sat-7th day)

Notice that they asked to be preached to the next sabbath??

Acts 18-4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.------

Notice he said Jews AND Greeks, not just Jews!

Acts 13- 14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

They did that because they were observing the sabbath!!

Acts 22-19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee

The Christians were in the synagogue on the Sabbath day. Why were they there? They were observing the sabbath day!!!

tam

 

[prophecynut]

The early church was predominately Jewish, they were accustom to meeting in synagogues. The leaders were interested in Paul's message and desired to hear more. Paul having success the first time was glad to return a second time hoping more Jews would receive Christ.

Paul's regular practice was to begin his preaching in the syngogue where Jews congregated. His reason for doing so was grounded in his understanding of God's redemptive plan for the Jew first and then the Gentile (v.64; Ro 1:16; 2:9-10). He was not neglecting his Gentile mission, for the Gentiles who were also interested in his message went to the Synagogues. Moreover, the synagogue provided a ready made preaching situation with a building, regularly scheduled meetings and a people who know the OT Scriptures. It was customary to invite visitors, and especially visiting rabbis (such as Paul), to address the gathering.

Much like today when evangelist preach the Word to those interested.

Assuming your a Gentile you're excluded from the Mosiac Law, and as a Christian you should not be involved legalistic rituals.

I don't want Scriptures that remotely imply observance of the Sabbath, rather proof that God has commanded the Church to observe it. OK?

 

[wopik]

prophecynut,

I don't want Scriptures that remotely imply observance of the Sabbath, rather proof that God has commanded the Church to observe it. OK?

The Twelve Apostles and Paul were Commandment keepers, meaning they kept all TEN of the TEN Commandments---including the Fourth.

Jesus told the young Lawyer (Matt. 19:17-19) to keep the Commandments, and Jesus recited a few of them.

Paul said nothing was as important as keeping the Commandments of God (1 Cor. 7:19). These were the TEN Commandments (Rom 7:7).


1 John 3:4 - sin is transgressing the Law. James says what Law:

James 2: 10-12 ---- keep all the TEN Commandments.

[ June 18, 2005, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: wopik ]