Well, you should ask what terms I use for this division, instead of trying to do it for me, and then using it to suggest that I am "Arguing for lawbreaking".The term "LawKeeping Sects" was first introduced -- by you.
I was just asking if you were dividing Christdianity into "lawkeeping" vs "lawbreaking" or is it just "law-ignoring"?? It appeared that you wanted to put "lawkeeping" on one side and so that suggests "lawbreaking" for the other.
By "Lawkeeping" (should really be cap.) I mean those who insist on a literal application of the OT Law of Moses beyond the universal moral and spiritual laws (Gen. 31:19-36; 3:1-4, 6; 4:8-10-16, 6:11, 9:4-6, 19:1-9; 5-7, 20:3, 31:19), which are also commanded in the NT. The opposite would be "non-Lawkeeping" (which is NOT the same as "lawBREAKING"!), or "non-sabbatarian".
Once again; none of us even preternds to keep the WHOLE Law, and Moody did not even preach the chrief one you argue over, so I don't know why you keep using him. The Church was mistaken for a long time, in saying that we were "under the Law", but then changing the 4th from the seventh day to the first. That was wrong, and most people today recognize it. His version of Christianity is the very one that would argue for your much dreaded "National Sunday Law", so once again, you do not want to hold him up as your true spokesman!Hence my question about how that line that you are drawing fits with the New Covenant for the saints where God's Law - is written on the heart and the Law of God is "established by our faith" rather than abolished!
Moody is one of those who argues FOR the continuation of God's Law and that Christians are to be found obedient to it rather than rebellious against it.
I didn't say NOBODY saw it that way. MOST people here have not argued that Sunday is the Sabbath. One or two may occasionally, but most here say we are not under the OT Law. The point is to argue with those who are here, not Christians from centuries ago. But then, your church's whole "National Sunday Law mark of the Beast" conspiracy theory would fall apart!Since you argue that nobody sees the role of Sunday the same way the bible presents Christ the Creator's Holy Seventh day - I simply was asking where you put D. L. Moody in that picture.
But Moody does. And this was fairly common for both Catholics and non-Catholics in his day.
Thus "superseded". This is just semantics.I don't agree with the "superseded" view.
God's Word is infallible EVEN when HE is speaking it from SINAI HIMSELF! (as difficult as that idea can be to believe).
The Laws God gave in the OT had a specific context.
The Moral Law - the 10 commandments define sin and rebellion vs obedience and worship.
The ceremonial law was "predictive" and pointed to the work of the Messiah as a "type" points to an antitype. Their predictions were fulfilled in the Messiah.
Those aren't simply "two out of 613", but rather the two that the WHOLE LAW hangs on (Matt.22:40). The individual laws themselves can change, as you even acknowledge many ceremonial ones did. But by keeping in principle the two, we establish the wole Law.The Lev 19:18 law of Love for our neighbor 'remsains'. The Duet 6:5 command to love God with all the heart - 'remains'.
These are two examples of prescriptive laws that are FULFILLED by Christ but not in the sense of a "prediction" that then has no more function.
"[ceremonially] clean and unclean" is spiritual; not physical. (2 Cor.6:17)The health laws "remain" until our biology is changed.
True. Nobody said anything about "bad laws". It was man who was bad, not keeping the Law.The civil laws are tied to the theocracy of Israel with God as literal ruling king! When that arrangement was broken "We have no king but Ceasar" the theocracy was ended and its civil laws no longer applicable.
So it is not a quesiton of "bad law superseded by good law" or "bad idea superseded by good idea". Rather - each of the laws had a context. If the context gets deleted - then the law has no domain space.
But the SDA, and COG's have claimed it is "the sign" of God. They actually take Ex.31:13 and change it to "the" sign!But your Catholic argument faile for several reasons.
#1. Adventists don't argue that all Sabbath keepers are saved among Jews, COG, SDA, Seventh-day Baptist etc. just because they are Sabbath keepers.
#2. NOR do they argue that all non-Sabbath keepers are "not Christian" simply because they don't keep Sabbath.
No one is using any "Catholic argument". The Catholists claim that their church is the ONLY [ONE] true Church. So they keep throwing up all the "multitudes of disagreeing denominations" to try to prove that only under their authority would there be any unity. We here are not arguing that. Protestants' basic defining doctrine is salvation by faith alone, but they do not hold this up as a particular "sign of God" the way sabbathkeepers do the sabbath. They believe it is necessary to be orthodox, but that is not the same as this talk of a "sign" og God; especially in contrast to the Mark of the Beast!. So the Catholics' arguments against us have nothing toi do with this.It fits rather well since you seek to use the Catholic argument against Sabbath keepers.
#3. There is not "100% Agreement" among non-Catholic groups on all points of doctrine (see the Calvinist vs Arminian subject thread) NOR is there agreement among Sabbath keeping Christian groups on all points of doctrine.
You are using the Catholic tactic against the Sabbath keeping Christians and it is not working for you any better than it worked for the Catholics against the non-Catholics!
There are many "messianics" who are just regular evangelical groups who meet on the day to reach Jews. I was referring, basically, to the Assemblies and Houses of YHWH ("sacred names"), and the multitude of others in the Directory of Sabbath Observing Groups. They all one-up each other as not keeping the Law right.I have been to many Messianic Christian churches that DO recognize Adventists and other Christian denominations as "Christian". Though I have no doubt you could find some extreme local congregation among them that did not.
You're probably referring to the Denver and Salem groups. The Denver group is a bit more open minded, but they do think the Passover on Nisan 14th is necessary, so they would not agree with the SDA on that. They are officially binitarian, but seem to have opened up on that as well. The Salem group is more exclusive. (It is from them that Armstrong came out of). So you've found one more little group that might accept you. Still, this does not erase the Armstrongs, Sacred Names, etc; all of which claim this one practice ios the sign of God. That is the point.There is a 7th-day Church of God AND a Church of God 7th-day.
The one is open to other 7th day groups (such as ADventists) and the other COG group is somewhat more of a closed group.
Your attempt to paint all with a single brush is not working.
It did not work when the Catholics tried it with non-Catholics either.
His people in the OT. They were the ONLY group of people who kept it; so it WAS "the sign". But they did not keep the rest of the Law, so all of that changed with Christ.Well #1 it is refreshing that you will admit that God says it IS a sign between Himself and His people.
But it's your side that keeps using that statement: "Sign of God vs. Mark of the Beast". Just look at Claudia's posts above. You yourself may not have used the exact phrase, but you can't deny that that is what SDA's do say all the time.#2. It was already shown that there are 7th-day keeping Groups that are not considered to be Christian - (Jews for example). So obviously "THE sign" is not accurate
Answered above.#3. It was already pointed out that a number of 7th-day groups (lawkeeping sects) as you call them, such as Seventh-day Baptists and Seventh-day Adventists do not fit this square hole you have invented for all Sabbath-keeping Christian churches.