Super Tuesday

[drwthohh]

I really can't understand how any christian could even contemplate voting for a candidate that promises to do everything in their power to keep abortion legal. I don't see how a God-fearing christian can be at peace with that stance.

I can understand being angry with Bush and his policies. I can understand being at odds with the Republican party. I can understand believing in many of the ideals of the Democratic party. But I cannot understand accepting the abortion of unborn children as an acceptable practice in our nation.

Please explain to me how this works for those of you who are OK with this.

Randy

 

[The Scribe]

I really can't understand how any christian could even contemplate voting for a candidate that promises to do everything in their power to keep abortion legal. I don't see how a God-fearing christian can be at peace with that stance.

I can understand being angry with Bush and his policies. I can understand being at odds with the Republican party. I can understand believing in many of the ideals of the Democratic party. But I cannot understand accepting the abortion of unborn children as an acceptable practice in our nation.

Please explain to me how this works for those of you who are OK with this.

Randy

Exactly...:thumbs:

 

[cowboymatt]

drwthohh, many Christians would say something like this in response to you:

I really can't understand how any Christian could even contemplate voting for a candidate that is a hawk and is not for immediate troop withdrawls. I don't see how a God-fearing Christian can be at peace with that stance.


My point is that voting based on one issue is never good. Someone could be anti-abortion but could be for policies that would do major damage to the poor, and any reader of the Bible (especially the prophets, Luke, and James) sees that God cares about how we treat the poor.

Abortion is horrible and I hate it, but I refuse to allow it to be a litmus test for which candidate I will vote for. It is one of the key issues that I look at, just not THE key issue.

 

[JamieinNH]

I really can't understand how any christian could even contemplate voting for a candidate that promises to do everything in their power to keep abortion legal. I don't see how a God-fearing christian can be at peace with that stance.

I can understand being angry with Bush and his policies. I can understand being at odds with the Republican party. I can understand believing in many of the ideals of the Democratic party. But I cannot understand accepting the abortion of unborn children as an acceptable practice in our nation.

Please explain to me how this works for those of you who are OK with this. Also, can you tell me whom you are pulling for at this time in the race?

Randy

I don't agree with his stance on abortion, but can you tell me of one thing the Repubican party, GOP or anyone did to completely end abortion? They held both the WH and Congress for 6 years, and yet...

Well you get my meaning.. Abortion will never be stopped if left up to either party. We need to figure out a different path to end it. Neither party will end it.

Jamie

 

[drwthohh]

My point is that voting based on one issue is never good. Someone could be anti-abortion but could be for policies that would do major damage to the poor, and any reader of the Bible (especially the prophets, Luke, and James) sees that God cares about how we treat the poor.

I don't see how the two are realistically compared. On the one hand, you have the poor being treated unfairly according to some people's standards. On the other hand you have a massive slaughter, to the tune of 4,000 children a day.

Remember how awful 9/11 was? Imagine that happening every day since that first attack. Do you not think we would be outraged as a nation against those who were doing this? Wouldn't we be united at nearly all costs in order to stop this atrocity? I am certain that we would, because we would be seeing it and feeling the effects of it.

Unfortunately with abortion, we don't see or feel the effects of it. But I am certain that the aborted children do. They just don't have a voice to tell us.:tear:

Randy

 

[redbelt]

I don't agree with his stance on abortion, but can you tell me of one thing the Repubican party, GOP or anyone did to completely end abortion? They held both the WH and Congress for 6 years, and yet...

Well you get my meaning.. Abortion will never be stopped if left up to either party. We need to figure out a different path to end it. Neither party will end it.

Jamie

I can't give one thing that ended abortion over the past 6 years, but I do know that President Bush appointed strict, constitutional constructionists to the Supreme Court which has a major impact on future legislation that may be brought before the Court. I don't see a Democratic President doing that.... do you?

 

[JamieinNH]

I can't give one thing that ended abortion over the past 6 years, but I do know that President Bush appointed strict, constitutional constructionists to the Supreme Court which has a major impact on future legislation that may be brought before the Court. I don't see a Democratic President doing that.... do you?

Judges are appointed for life and are not always as they seem...

Thanks for admiting thought that the GOP with all their hot air about what they will do when it comes to abortion, thanks for admiting they did nothing. zip... zilch... nada.. to competely end abortion in the six (6) years they had both the congress and the WH. With that, we're suppose to be for one party over another over one issue?!?

Jamie

 

[StefanM]

I don't see how the two are realistically compared. On the one hand, you have the poor being treated unfairly according to some people's standards. On the other hand you have a massive slaughter, to the tune of 4,000 children a day.

Remember how awful 9/11 was? Imagine that happening every day since that first attack. Do you not think we would be outraged as a nation against those who were doing this? Wouldn't we be united at nearly all costs in order to stop this atrocity? I am certain that we would, because we would be seeing it and feeling the effects of it.

Unfortunately with abortion, we don't see or feel the effects of it. But I am certain that the aborted children do. They just don't have a voice to tell us.:tear:

Randy

There will be, by the end of Bush's term, 20 years of GOP presidencies since Roe v. Wade. And yet it stands.

The Republican party has no real interest in putting "teeth" to their pro-life platform. There are too many pro-choice Republicans for them to really take a stand. Even if they wanted to, they know it wouldn't work. There is no way That Roe v. Wade is going to be overturned, and we won't see an amendment.
Besides, from a political standpoint, why would the GOP want to get rid of it's conservative Christian insurance? By keeping the abortion issue on the table, they can trot it out every two years to rally the "troops" to keep sending them back to Congress. Then they can ignore the issue for a year or so before the next election rolls around.

If the GOP actually had a true desire and a legitimate chance to outlaw abortion, being a one-issue voter might make sense. As it stands now, though, such a policy is fruitless.

 

[drwthohh]

I don't agree with his stance on abortion, but can you tell me of one thing the Repubican party, GOP or anyone did to completely end abortion? They held both the WH and Congress for 6 years, and yet...

Bush nominated two justices to Supreme Court that will hopefully give favorable rulings to pro-life court cases. He also stopped federal funding of abortions. He signed a partial-birth abortion ban passed by the republican congress (a law Clinton vetoed several times!)

Well you get my meaning.. Abortion will never be stopped if left up to either party. We need to figure out a different path to end it. Neither party will end it.

Jamie

They will be more persuaded to end it if pro-life voters demand that they take action, instead of relegating it to a second tier issue. We need to be more passionate about a situation that cries out for our action. Until that happens, you are right, neither party will end it, but I will take every life we can save in the mean time.

 

[StefanM]

Bush nominated two justices to Supreme Court that will hopefully give favorable rulings to pro-life court cases. He also stopped federal funding of abortions. He signed a partial-birth abortion ban passed by the republican congress (a law Clinton vetoed several times!)

Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion won't end. It'll simply go back to the states. Many (probably most) states will immediately legalize abortion.

Of course, Roe v. Wade won't be going anywhere anyway.

 

[cowboymatt]

I don't see how the two are realistically compared. On the one hand, you have the poor being treated unfairly according to some people's standards. On the other hand you have a massive slaughter, to the tune of 4,000 children a day.

Remember how awful 9/11 was? Imagine that happening every day since that first attack. Do you not think we would be outraged as a nation against those who were doing this? Wouldn't we be united at nearly all costs in order to stop this atrocity? I am certain that we would, because we would be seeing it and feeling the effects of it.

Unfortunately with abortion, we don't see or feel the effects of it. But I am certain that the aborted children do. They just don't have a voice to tell us.:tear:

Randy

Regardless, the Bible speaks about poverty more often than almost any other modern political problem. To ignore it and claim to be voting "Christian" is not being intellectually honest.

 

[drwthohh]

There will be, by the end of Bush's term, 20 years of GOP presidencies since Roe v. Wade. And yet it stands.

The Republican party has no real interest in putting "teeth" to their pro-life platform. There are too many pro-choice Republicans for them to really take a stand. Even if they wanted to, they know it wouldn't work. There is no way That Roe v. Wade is going to be overturned, and we won't see an amendment.
Besides, from a political standpoint, why would the GOP want to get rid of it's conservative Christian insurance? By keeping the abortion issue on the table, they can trot it out every two years to rally the "troops" to keep sending them back to Congress. Then they can ignore the issue for a year or so before the next election rolls around.

If the GOP actually had a true desire and a legitimate chance to outlaw abortion, being a one-issue voter might make sense. As it stands now, though, such a policy is fruitless.

Believe me, I don't put much faith in the republicans to completely stop abortions. But as of now they are the only party who at least takes some sort of stand against it, even if it is a weak stand.

I quote myself from another thread:

In examining myself on the matter of abortion, I have always opposed it and it is an absolute requirement for any candidate I vote for to be staunchly pro-life. However, this election season has me realizing that I have not done enough for this cause. Simply voting and no more is no longer sufficient. I must speak out to those in my circle of influence, even if it is percieved by others as a taboo subject.

We have to remember that the issue of slavery was debated for several generations in this nation. Many christians kept silent and many also took the side of the slave-holders. Many said that they were personally opposed to slavery, yet they would not impose their beliefs on others. All the while millions of slaves lived and died under that unjust system. They were not even counted as a whole person (i.e. the 3/5 compromise built into the constitution).

The situation today is the same, yet worse. The victims today are being outright murdered. And they have even less voice and are more defenseless than the slaves were. And what are we doing about it? What am I doing about it?

Abraham Lincoln pondered that the Civil War might have been God's judgement on America for its toleration and support of slavery. If that is true, what might that mean for our modern nation's future?

Someone has stated on another thread that christians have nothing to fear from God when His judgement comes. Well, I wonder how many righteous people of the 1860's suffered greatly during that time? Many were killed in the war, on both sides. I'm sure many christians in the south found themselves in the path of destruction wrought by the armies. Did they have nothing to fear? Did they suffer no loss?

I enjoy the good times of peace and prosperity in our nation as much as anyone else, but it is an abomination that 50 million children have lost their lives during this prosperous time. As much as I dread what our nation may face as a result of our sin, something deep in my soul also cries out for God's justice to be done. I can only imagine what that may bring upon us and our children.

Randy

 

[drwthohh]

Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion won't end. It'll simply go back to the states. Many (probably most) states will immediately legalize abortion.

Of course, Roe v. Wade won't be going anywhere anyway.

You're right. Let's just give up now since there is no hope. Why fight it? They're just unborn children after all.

I suppose if your home were invaded by armed thugs whom you knew were going to murder your children, and you were unarmed, you would simply sit back and let them have their way since you were powerless to stop them.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that we have to choose our battles in life. But some battles cry out for all out fighting no matter what the odds. The fight for the helpless unborn is one of those battles.

Randy

 

[StefanM]

You're right. Let's just give up now since there is no hope. Why fight it? They're just unborn children after all.

I suppose if your home were invaded by armed thugs whom you knew were going to murder your children, and you were unarmed, you would simply sit back and let them have their way since you were powerless to stop them.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that we have to choose our battles in life. But some battles cry out for all out fighting no matter what the odds. The fight for the helpless unborn is one of those battles.

Randy

Fighting against the legality of abortion is unfruitful. I never said that we should do nothing. We should focus our energy on preventing the "need" for abortion. We need to do everything we can to reduce the unwanted pregnancies in America before they begin. Also, we need to bring women who are considering abortion to the point at which they also consider alternatives.

But if we say to a single mother, "No help for you. No health insurance for you. No decent paying job for you. Oh, and, by the way, you should keep your baby," we won't get anywhere. We need to make sure that it's actually feasible for people to raise these children.

Fighting battles in Congress doesn't stop abortion. Helping women who are making tough decisions stops abortions.

I hate abortion. I just believe that the way to impact the abortion issue is a matter of hearts and minds not of bills and laws.

 

[drwthohh]

Regardless, the Bible speaks about poverty more often than almost any other modern political problem. To ignore it and claim to be voting "Christian" is not being intellectually honest.

It's not intellectually honest to forget that our nation has spent trillions of dollars in the past 70 years to address the issue of poverty.

It's not intellectually honest to overlook the fact that the modern poor in our nation maitain a standard of living as good, if not better, than many other nations' middle classes. Nearly all have electricity, food, plumbing, and a free public education offered to them. Poverty is a relative concept. Jesus told us that the poor would always be with us. Why? Because poverty is a moving target. Give everyone a new chevrolet today, and the definition of poverty will be re-defined.

So, all I ask is that our nation give half as much attention to the abortion issue as has been given to the poverty issue. We don't even have to spend too much money. Just pass a constitutional amendment affording a civil right to life for the unborn children.

Sounds far-fetched? I bet ending slavery sounded far-fetched at one time also. But because enough people continued the fight despite the odds, that institution was abolished. May God help us to have the courage to do the same with the abortion atrocity.

Randy

 

[drwthohh]

I hate abortion. I just believe that the way to impact the abortion issue is a matter of hearts and minds not of bills and laws.

And I believe it is a matter of both. Our laws should reflect our hearts and minds. That's why it is against the law to steal, murder, rape, etc. Most of our hearts and minds are are behind these laws.

I said "most" because there are a number of people in this country whose hearts and minds are not averse to stealing, raping, or murdering. They demonstrate this when they commit these crimes without remorse. Should we not have laws in place for these people because their hearts and minds don't agree with our laws? Of course we should!

But if we say to a single mother, "No help for you. No health insurance for you. No decent paying job for you. Oh, and, by the way, you should keep your baby," we won't get anywhere. We need to make sure that it's actually feasible for people to raise these children.

Yes, we should help these women for sure. The first step is to put tremendous legal pressure on the fathers to own up and take responsibility for their child. This should not be a women's only issue. It takes two to make a baby, and two to raise it properly. If the fathers would step up to the plate for their children the mothers would have a lot of weight taken off of their shoulders.

Randy

 

[StefanM]

And I believe it is a matter of both. Our laws should reflect our hearts and minds. That's why it is against the law to steal, murder, rape, etc. Most of our hearts and minds are are behind these laws.

I said "most" because there are a number of people in this country whose hearts and minds are not averse to stealing, raping, or murdering. They demonstrate this when they commit these crimes without remorse. Should we not have laws in place for these people because their hearts and minds don't agree with our laws? Of course we should!

Yes, we should help these women for sure. The first step is to put tremendous legal pressure on the fathers to own up and take responsibility for their child. This should not be a women's only issue. It takes two to make a baby, and two to raise it properly. If the fathers would step up to the plate for their children the mothers would have a lot of weight taken off of their shoulders.

Ideally, our laws would reflect that fact. But, given the current legal situation, that doesn't appear to be a feasible outcome. With this in mind, IMO, we should concentrate our efforts on hearts and minds first. If we change their minds, then the laws have a chance to change later. We aren't going to ram it through the legal system.

I do think that fathers need to step up, too. We are agreed there.

 

[StefanM]

I think approaches like this could prove successful in the goal, which is to save lives.

Democrats for Life--the 95-10 initiative

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Still waiting, Scribe..............

 

[KenH]

Both Obama and Hillary are tearing each other down, it will only benefit the Republican candidate, probably McCain.

True. And conservative Republicans are tearing down McCain which will only beneift the Democratic candidate.