Supersessionism - the error of St. Augustine and others

[beameup]

Supersessionism is a Christian theology that contrasts with Dual-covenant theology. Biblical expressions of God's relationships with people are known as covenants, so the contentious element of supersessionism is the idea that the New Covenant with Christendom replaces the Mosaic Covenant with the Israelites and Proselytes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism

Punitive supersessionism is the view that Jews who reject Jesus as the Jewish Messiah are consequently condemned by God, forfeiting the promises otherwise due to them under the covenants.edited from Wikipedia [Hippolytus, Origen, and Luther]

Economic supersessionism is used in the technical theological sense of function (see economic Trinity). It is the view that the practical purpose of the nation of Israel in God's plans is replaced by the role of the church. edited from Wikipedia [Justin Martyr, Augustine, and Barth]

Structural supersessionism is Soulen's term for the de facto marginalization of the Old Testament as normative for Christian thought. In his words, "Structural supersessionism refers to the narrative logic of the standard model whereby it renders the Hebrew Scriptures largely indecisive for shaping Christian convictions about how God’s works as Consummator and Redeemer engage humankind in universal and enduring ways. edited from Wikipedia

These three views are neither mutually exclusive, nor logically dependent, and it is possible to hold all of them or any one with or without the others.

NOTE: Replacement Theology led to Anti-Semitism which led to the Holocaust.
It also makes God out to be a "promise breaker" as to the commitments made to (genetic) Israel in the Old Testament.
http://www.shema.com/Combating Replacement Theology/crt-005.php

 

[asterisktom]

Replacement Theology led to Anti-Semitism which led to the Holocaust.

This has to be the stupidest thing I have read in a long time.

 

[Baptist Believer]

NOTE: Replacement Theology led to Anti-Semitism which led to the Holocaust.

A rooster crowed and the sun came up. Therefore, the rooster controls the sun. Right?

BTW, the Holocaust was about much more than the Jews. My mother's family was pulled off a train at the Austrian border, loads into cattle cars and imprisoned by the Nazis for a couple of years in camps in Poland because they were considered "Eastern European" and therefore less than fully human. As far as we know, there is no one in our ancestry with a Jewish heritage.

Not only is your logic faulty, your history is profoundly incomplete and you're missing many other elements that played into anti-Semitism. So-called Replacement Theology is not anti-Semitic in itself, but anti-Semitic people can co-opt it (just like anything else) to justify their sinful attitudes and actions.

For two millennia, anti-Semitic people have been using the Gospel of John (with its references to "The Jews" - actually speaking of Jewish leadership) as justification for anti-Semitic pograms. By you logic, we should reject the Gospel of John.

 

[beameup]

This has to be the stupidest thing I have read in a long time.

My former pastor's wife is a Jew and descendant of Jews in Spain during the Inquisition.
Her family was forced either to become Catholic or be put to death or sold into Muslim slavery.

I know that the truth must be painful for those who hold these Catholic beliefs.

 

[OldRegular]

beameup

What led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD?

 

[beameup]

beameup

What led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD?

Old Regular

What led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 586 BC?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Supersessionism is a Christian theology that contrasts with Dual-covenant theology. Biblical expressions of God's relationships with people are known as covenants, so the contentious element of supersessionism is the idea that the New Covenant with Christendom replaces the Mosaic Covenant with the Israelites and Proselytes.

Not Exactly. The New Covenant with believing Israelites, Proselytes and Gentiles replaces the Mosaic Covenant with Israelites and Proselytes (Heb 8:11). What you describe as 'Replacement Theology' is actually Inclusion Theology. 'For He Himself is our peace, who has made both [Jew and Gentile] one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation.......so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace' (Eph 2:14-15).

Punitive supersessionism is the view that Jews who reject Jesus as the Jewish Messiah are consequently condemned by God, forfeiting the promises otherwise due to them under the covenants.

'"Behold, the days are coming," Says the LORD, "That I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised- Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart' (Jer 9:23-24. cf. also Gal 6:15) Is this an unalterable state of affairs? Not at all! 'And they [Jews] also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again' (Rom 11:23).

What modern-day Israel needs is exactly what Palestine, Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia need: The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

My former pastor's wife is a Jew and descendant of Jews in Spain during the Inquisition.
Her family was forced either to become Catholic or be put to death or sold into Muslim slavery.

I know that the truth must be painful for those who hold these Catholic beliefs.

I think you must be troll, trying to incite others for responses. I really can't believe that you are as idiotic as you sound. But either way I am going to ignore you. You are no longer amusing.

 

[HankD]

Scapegoat: One that is made to bear the blame of others.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scapegoating

The Jewish people have been the scapegoat of earthly tyranical despots from their slave master Pharaoh to Ahmadinejad. Their inflammatory tactic: When all else fails, blame the Jews.


HankD

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not Exactly. The New Covenant with believing Israelites, Proselytes and Gentiles replaces the Mosaic Covenant with Israelites and Proselytes (Heb 8:11). What you describe as 'Replacement Theology' is actually Inclusion Theology. 'For He Himself is our peace, who has made both [Jew and Gentile] one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation.......so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace' (Eph 2:14-15).



'"Behold, the days are coming," Says the LORD, "That I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised- Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart' (Jer 9:23-24. cf. also Gal 6:15) Is this an unalterable state of affairs? Not at all! 'And they [Jews] also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again' (Rom 11:23).

What modern-day Israel needs is exactly what Palestine, Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia need: The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Steve

& they have it but dont want to believe it. What they need (besides the Gospel) is the power of the HS to change hearts.

 

[beameup]

What modern-day Israel needs is exactly what Palestine, Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia need: The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Steve

There always has been a "remnant" who are saved along with the Gentiles in this Age of the Gospel of Grace Alone.
However, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: is yet future for God's People the genetic Israelites. [Rom 11:26]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There always has been a "remnant" who are saved along with the Gentiles in this Age of the Gospel of Grace Alone.
However, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: is yet future for God's People the genetic Israelites. [Rom 11:26]

I'm afraid you're having problems identifying Zion and, especially, Israel.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Romans 9:6-8 (NKJV)

Steve

 

[beameup]

I'm afraid you're having problems identifying Zion and, especially, Israel.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Romans 9:6-8 (NKJV)

Steve

I'm afraid you are having problems identifying Abraham (who existed long before either Zion or Israel).

Abraham was given the gospel by example when he was offering up his "only son" on Mt. Moriah.
He understood what God would do at some future point; he understood "the Gospel".
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Gal 3:29

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. - Rom 11:1 speaks of (genetic) Israel.

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. - Rom 11:11

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. - Rom 11:25

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [genetic Israel] - Rom 11:25

For this is my covenant unto them [genetic Israel], when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Iconoclast]

A rooster crowed and the sun came up. Therefore, the rooster controls the sun. Right?
:laugh:

I'm afraid you're having problems identifying Zion and, especially, Israel.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Romans 9:6-8 (NKJV)

:thumbsup:

Originally Posted by asterisktom
This has to be the stupidest thing I have read in a long time.

:laugh:

Hyper dispensationalim alert.........

 

[Martin Marprelate]

For this is my covenant unto them [genetic Israel], when I shall take away their sins.

Writing "genetic Israel" several times does not necessarily make it so.

'A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, not of the written code' (Rom 2:28-29, NIV).

'For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spitit of God, who glory in Jesus Christ, and who put no confidence in the flesh' (Phil 3:3).

God may bring about a marvellous revival in modern-day Israel some day soon, and I hope I live to see it. But there is only one people of God: believing Jew and believing Gentile together in Christ.

Although I disagree with Dispensationalism, I must say here that I prefer it a hundred times over to Hyper-preterism which denies an important part of the doctrine of Christ; namely, His impending return.

 

[Herald]

I think you must be troll, trying to incite others for responses. I really can't believe that you are as idiotic as you sound. But either way I am going to ignore you. You are no longer amusing.

Tom, I don't use the ignore feature too often, but in this case I have to agree with you. The OP in this thread had to be one of the most idiotic I have ever read. Thankfully I won't have to read any other posts by this person.

 

[OldRegular]

There always has been a "remnant" who are saved along with the Gentiles in this Age of the Gospel of Grace Alone.
However, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: is yet future for God's People the genetic Israelites. [Rom 11:26]

I thought the Deliverer came out of Zion ~2000 years ago. :jesus::applause:

 

[HankD]

The deliverer will come again to rule over all the earth:​

Acts 1
...Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives and will so return.

HankD​

 

[Mexdeaf]

Some people should not be allowed to use computer keyboards.

 

[Van]

Supersessionism is a Christian theology that contrasts with Dual-covenant theology. Biblical expressions of God's relationships with people are known as covenants, so the contentious element of supersessionism is the idea that the New Covenant with Christendom replaces the Mosaic Covenant with the Israelites and Proselytes.

Punitive supersessionism is the view that Jews who reject Jesus as the Jewish Messiah are consequently condemned by God, forfeiting the promises otherwise due to them under the covenants.

Economic supersessionism is used in the technical theological sense of function (see economic Trinity). It is the view that the practical purpose of the nation of Israel in God's plans is replaced by the role of the church.

Structural supersessionism is Soulen's term for the de facto marginalization of the Old Testament as normative for Christian thought. In his words, "Structural supersessionism refers to the narrative logic of the standard model whereby it renders the Hebrew Scriptures largely indecisive for shaping Christian convictions about how God’s works as Consummator and Redeemer engage humankind in universal and enduring ways.

These three views are neither mutually exclusive, nor logically dependent, and it is possible to hold all of them or any one with or without the others.

Replacement Theology as defined by opponents of Reformed Theology: A theological perspective that teaches that the Jews have been rejected by God and are no longer God’s Chosen People. Those who hold to this view disavow any ethnic future for the Jewish people in connection with the biblical covenants, believing that their spiritual destiny is either to perish or become a part of the new religion that superseded Judaism (whether Christianity or Islam). (Price)

Dual Covenant Theology: Dual-Covenant theology holds that Jesus' message is not for Jews but for Gentiles and, for example, John 14:6 is to be understood thusly: "I am the way, the truth and the life; and no Gentile comes to the Father except through me.

From the above we see a lot of poison being presented over the question of how God will deal with "genetic" Israel. First, as pointed out by others, the concept of genetic Israel is a mistaken view, as illustrated by Paul's description of the "natural olive tree." God cuts off "genetic branches and grafts in wild branches.

Therefore "all Israel" is made of of natural branches who believe in Jesus as their Messiah, and wild branches who believe in Jesus as their Savior too. These "genetic" and non-genetic children of the promise will partake in the Old Testament covenants, and therefore the biblical view is best described by progressive dispensationalism.