'SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT' THE EVIL FACING AMERICA Part One

[billwald]

"The world's top central banking authority has warned that the Bank of England's inflation-busting tactics are largely responsible for the dangerous pile-up of household debt"

How can the govt force people to borrow money??????

 

[elijah_lives]

Well, Poncho, I lived in Germany for six years. One of my German friends invited us to visit E. Germany, which we did. People there went into their bathrooms and ran the baths at full throttle in order to speak without being overheard. Everywhere they went, there was a police presence. Each apartment building had informants who kept their eyes on everyone else, and reported regularly to the Stasi. There was no political opposition, because any suspicion of it was quelled immediately. And, yes, doors were kicked in.

That's a police state. We are nowhere's even near a police state. To suggest otherwise is sheer intellectual dishonesty. We have functioning courts, elected officials at local, state, and federal levels, with too much free speech (witness the treasonous reporting by the New York Times ), and a rule of law subject to the will of the people. We have a Constitution that upholds our rights. We have peaceful transitions when one party is elected over another. We have people exercising their right to protest in the streets. Try that in East Germany or Cuba or Vietnam. The only protests there are government organized.

Communism and it's cousin, socialism, are the biggest evils on the planet. These systems are responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths in the last century, and to compare them to what we have in this country is absolute lunacy.

Remember the boy who cried wolf? There is so much outlandish claims going on that most people are tuning it out. If we ever do have a police state, nobody will believe you.

 

[poncho]

Oh boy, EL you don't get out much do you.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later I can see it's going to be a very long reply with loads of links from the mainstream media. Reality in spades in other words.

For now though I think it's enough to reply to this part.

Communism and it's cousin, socialism, are the biggest evils on the planet. These systems are responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths in the last century

Huh, what is this all about? I was kind of hoping for some of you're more deeper intellectual insights into philosophical political matters here EL my man. If this is the best you can do..."communism and socialim are the scourges of the planet". There isn't much sense in continuing this part of the disscusion and you should gracefully admit defeat tuck you're tail and move on but I got the feeling you are much more intelligent and able minded than this feable reply would suggest.

You seemed to have left out facism too btw. I'm most interested in how you would describe this political philosophy.

C'mon brother, give me all the dirty details, the low down the nitty gritty, the overriding principles of these evil scourges of the planet earth I'll even let you open you're browser if you need help. No need to be shy we're all friends here and I promise not to use all caps and be just as responsible as I possibly can the rest of the discussion. No fussin no fightin no ill will just two regular guys dissecting some evil monsters into little pieces. Deal?

 

[elijah_lives]

Sorry, Poncho, I was pretty busy at the time. Fascism is not much different, in terms of it's lack of respect for human rights. But it does, at least, protect some property rights, which is more than one can say about communism.

I don't need philisophical arguments about communism -- I've seen it first hand, and socialism is the "slippery slope" into communism. 100 years of socialism has failed to solve anything, and has made a lot of things worse. Poverty, war, pollution, income disparities between the "haves" and "have nots" -- still present, even in communist or socialist societies. We talked earlier about those who create value, and those who don't. All socialism does is make that problem worse. It takes incentives away from those who create to create more, and incentives away from those who don't work to work more.

FDR's "temporary" social measures made the Depression worse and longer, and Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" loaded us with liabilities we can't support anymore (medicare, and medicaid). Our social security program is untouchable. (Did I ever mention that I couldn't get SSI/Disability, because I didn't have enough work credits in the previous 5 years? Yet, I've paid into it for years, and continue to pay whenever I'm lucky enough to make a profit? Yet I am ineligible?)

Just what do you think are the benefits? I've been fortunate enough to have lived overseas for a third of my life, and I've traveled to roughly half of the countries in the U.N. Enough to see the effects of communism on keeping people down, right where the "ruling powers" want them. And I've had enough friends who managed to escape from Eastern Europe and Vietnam to know what a police state is, and the U.S.A. isn't one. Not even close.

Europe is a basket case. Africa is even worse. The socialist economies of Latin America are crippling the ability of their citizens to escape grueling poverty, which I have seen firsthand. The USSR has collapsed (thank God!) Even China is getting into a market economy. Why do you put down a nation as great as ours, poncho? Compared to the rest of the world, well -- there is no comparison.

As Larry Kudlow is fond of saying, "Capitalism is the best road to prosperity." Of course, there must be laws to restrain monopolistic tendencies, but no other system in man's history has spread prosperity to so many, in such a short time.

 

[poncho]

I'll be back on later tonight EL got an emergency. My brother mangled his hand at work so I have to go help out.

 

[elijah_lives]

May God bless him, Poncho.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by elijah_lives:
May God bless him, Poncho.

I believe God has EL. Thanks.

He was unloading a truck full of aluminum windows for a school project had a big slider window close unexpectedly. Broke two fingertips and lost the nails beat the rest up pretty bad that's the worst of it. Looks like he'll be okay. At first we thought he'd severed them. It's dangerous work. I thought he was a goner one day as I watched the lift he was operating nearly tip over. He was be soldabout 100 feet in the air at the time.When you have days like that you earn the right to have the last jelly doughnut!

Well, Poncho, I lived in Germany for six years. One of my German friends invited us to visit E. Germany, which we did. People there went into their bathrooms and ran the baths at full throttle in order to speak without being overheard. Everywhere they went, there was a police presence. Each apartment building had informants who kept their eyes on everyone else, and reported regularly to the Stasi. There was no political opposition, because any suspicion of it was quelled immediately. And, yes, doors were kicked in.

That's a police state. We are nowhere's even near a police state. To suggest otherwise is sheer intellectual dishonesty. We have functioning courts, elected officials at local, state, and federal levels, with too much free speech (witness the treasonous reporting by the New York Times ), and a rule of law subject to the will of the people. We have a Constitution that upholds our rights. We have peaceful transitions when one party is elected over another. We have people exercising their right to protest in the streets. Try that in East Germany or Cuba or Vietnam. The only protests there are government organized.

Then you've already witnessed what is in the works for us EL. You've witnessed the effects of these systems but have you never asked yourself how these systems are set up to begin with?

Why the big fish are always able to devour the little fish? And why the little fish after they have already witnessed these systems in past history willingly give their consent to be devoured until the very last moment in most cases?

And please don't tell me it's God's will that countless millions should suffer so a very few should gain or that we have no defense against it. I don't buy it.

Communisim. State control of property and manufacturing.

Facism. Business and government combined.

Socialism. Redistribution of wealth.

Capitalism. Private and corporate ownership of capital goods. Which demands constant growth to survive. The strong devouring the weaker untill there is no competition at which point they are forced to "aquire" other more profitable markets by stealth, coercion manipulation or force.

Super capitalism. Where corporations have grown beyond their reasonable limits having the capital and power to coerce and control government while combining itself with it. Not just combining with it but actually calling the shots through corruption of the governors and governing systems and laws themselves. That includes the military that are controlled by those that have been corrupted in government.

Globalism. A combination of all the other systems with heavy tendencies towards communism with the international bankers and international corporations at the top who's only concern is to the bottom line. They make their own laws favorable to themselves by coercing and manipulating government. The corporations with the help of the banks have freed themselves through the maipulation of international laws (free trade and the UN) and our minds because they control the money that controls the governments and media.

We do have laws in place to prevent this, Anti Trust Laws but the courts are corrupted by the same system so are reluctant to impose them and when they do they are token cases that break up the monopolies yet still let the pieces be controlled by the same people at the top. The people see the headlines through the media that is part of the system but fail to follow up and do the math. Believing their is a free press and the media are giving them all the information they need to make important decisions.

C'mon EL think about it, they sell us one kind of soap over another by endless loops of propaganda, what makes anyone think they can't sell us slavery the same way?

They keep us entertained and unaware by giving us bread and bloody games now the same as Caesar did centuries ago at the great coliseum only now it's scientifically crafted high tech public relations and beamed directly to our living rooms. We're being bathed in it every minute of every day.

The media is there only to act as a tool to engineer consent. Period. The globalists have their hands on and control all the levers of powers. Sure their are factions within that fuss and fight about how to do this or that and the other but in the end they all agree on one thing...their only loyalty is to the bottom line. Not America, not Mexico, not China, not India or any other country. To them we are all just pieces of their farmland to raise cash crops. As soon as one field is used up and no longer profitable they go on to harvest the next.

You've seen the effects of their harvests already this you admit too. You've seen the misery and destruction they have caused all their other fields and guess what buddy, we, this country America is now their biggest juiciest ripest field.

I'll get into the control system that has being set up another day to control the people and allow the harvest or you can just go watch Alex's videos. He does a good job of documenting it all in vivid color.

Why do I put this country down? I don't put this country down. I love this country I think it's the greatest country on the planet bar none. I just refuse to let a bunch of egomaniacal power drunk blood thirsty control freak thieving cowards harvest the country I love and devour it and us like we are nothing more than cattle and corn field.

Because to them, that's all we are. You say you don't like communism soicialim and fascism and you've witnessed their effects before so I ask you...why do you so easily put up with them in your own country and support them by supporting either of the two globalist controlled groups (parties) that push them on us all in the first place?

[ February 24, 2006, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

[elijah_lives]

Poncho, I'm glad your brother is okay.

I appreciate the straight talk. I don't substantially disagree with anything that you have said, which means we have common ground after all. I just don't buy into conspiracy theories about a very real war between radical Islam and the West.

Being the weekend, with the kids home from school, I need to direct their chores and think about my response. So it might be awhile before I get back. If you took me off "ignore", we could communicate a little better without boring the public with my workday necessities.

 

[LadyEagle]

Glad your brother is okay, poncho.

I have to tell you, I love these discussions where both sides post back and forth without namecalling, insults, personal attacks, etc., and that show the willingness to listen to each other. These are the kinds of discussions I enjoy so I'm enjoying this thread.

Lady Eagle

 

[saturneptune]

Poncho and Lady Eagle,
I am really enjoying your posts. Both of you inspire me to stick to what I believe about the two major parties. Its all a matter of really caring for the American people.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by elijah_lives:
Poncho, I'm glad your brother is okay.

I appreciate the straight talk. I don't substantially disagree with anything that you have said, which means we have common ground after all. I just don't buy into conspiracy theories about a very real war between radical Islam and the West.

Being the weekend, with the kids home from school, I need to direct their chores and think about my response. So it might be awhile before I get back. If you took me off "ignore", we could communicate a little better without boring the public with my workday necessities.

EL mi amigo. Considerate it done! My deepest apologies brother. I am so sorry that I get frustrated and upset with other members. I do and say alot of dumb unwarranted things that I regret later. Take all the time you need enjoy the family I'm in no hurry.

And the same apologies to everyone that I may have offended by word or action here on BB.

LadyEagle,

He's going to be sore for awhile but he'll be okay. One of the guys we work with lost a finger the same way so my brother is lucky to have all his intact even if they are beat up pretty bad.

Glad you are enjoying the thread, I am also. EL and I have alot in common it would seem. I grew up around farms and spent a good deal of time caring for livestock, can't say that slopping my grandad's hogs was a pleasure but consuming them certianly was. Not only could the ole man raise em he could butcher and roast em too! Mmmmmmm.

Never got used to seeing hogs heads soaking in a bucket of brine in the woodshed though. Always gave me the willies. I won't even touch head cheese!

Have you had the chance to watch America Destroyed By Design Yet?

saturneptune,

I think it's a matter of defending the principles this country was founded on. No matter how many fear tactics or amount of propaganda the globalists throw at us through their controlled media outlets. I'm never going to be convinced that giving up those principles will make us safe from their manufactured terrorists.

[ February 25, 2006, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

[elijah_lives]

Thanks for your kind words, poncho. We all (and I do include myself) tend to say things we regret, and posting on a BB increases that tendency, I think.

I agree with all of your definitions, but just don't see much of an alternative to capitalism, given the present state of both domestic and foreign affairs, and the evil heart of man.

I have known poverty (still do), and I have also spent money foolishly when I was younger. I tithe to spread the gospel, even though my personal income is below $10K -- poverty by any standards. I live in a 100-year old house where the floors have literally caved in; 1/4 of the floors cannot be walked on. (With the labor of my wife and children, and wood we have milled from the forest, we are slowly rebuilding the floors.) My doctor recently cut my prescription drugs down to 11 (from 19), because it is very difficult to purchase them, but they are absolutely necessary. Still, there are some things I can do, in spite of my disabilities, and I owe society for what I can do. I give away most of the furniture I build, because I'd rather see it used by someone who needs it than for it to be "merchandise" in a cold, taxable exchange of cash. I barter computer services for work on my tractor. I think that we all need to work together to improve the lot of those worse off; we have a social responsibility that is vastly ignored due to greed and selfishness.

The local churches will not help us (or anybody local), because they have apparently "been taken advantage of in the past." It seems to me that the church has failed to do what it can to alleviate poverty (even forgetting my own situation). I see some take multiple vacations a year, one who owns a Lear jet, another who owns maybe a tenth of the county, etc. The current church discussion is whether or not to spend $80,000 on stained glass windows. Yet this is one of the poorest counties in the nation -- nearly half live below the poverty line. So, I see a failure of leadership at all levels: ecclesiastical, local, state, and federal.

Jesus tells us that "the poor you will always have" (Mt 19:21), suggesting that no political/economic system devised by man will eliminate poverty. The commandment against theft tells me that private property rights are to be protected. We are told to work for our needs (2 Thes 3:10) and to protect the poor, the widow, the orphan, and the stranger (too many verses to quote, here). The parables of Jesus seem to deal with money more than anything else, at least on the surface. And King Solomon amassed more wealth then anyone before or since, I think.

So, what conclusions can we draw? Property rights don't exist in communism, so we can exclude that system. Socialism has some concept of property rights, but they can be given or taken at the whim of the state. Both of these systems relegate the individual to either labor or management , cold terms that dehumanize and divide. They stifle individual creativity, incentive and productivity. Resources are more efficiently used when they are not controlled by the state. We see this even in the U.S., where it is the private sector, not the government, that is in the forefront of rebuilding after Katrina.

Capitalism seems to be a good model, as long as there is constant growth (as you mention in your definition of capitalism) and investment. The key there is to enforce anti-mopolistic laws (which you also correctly point out are not being enforced), pursue productivity increases (the real source of rising standards of living), and to implement a strong safety net for those who can't survive on their own.

But high taxation, especially of capital, reduces employment and real wages, because it reduces investment. We now have the second highest corporate taxes in the world, behind Japan (where there is almost no growth). The tax cuts of the Bush administration may benefit the wealthiest disproportionately to the poorest, at least on the surface, but it has permitted new capital investment which has created millions of new jobs. (Even my family benefited, because of accelerated depreciation on our cattle and other equipment, and an direct increase in the child credit, to the tune of several thousand dollars per year. That was badly needed, and well appreciated). In the long run, the rich have too much money to spend, so they invest it, and that results in increased employment, tax revenues, and possibly profits (if there's anything left over). They take risks with their money, and should be rewarded with profit potential free from confiscatory taxation, so they might begin the cycle anew.

Our current accounts deficit (trade deficit) is directly attribitable to our desire for foreign goods, excess regulations and taxes here in the U.S., and our addiction to foreign oil. It amounts to a huge transfer of wealth out of our country. We are doing it to ourselves. We buy foreign, instead of domestic. We put large areas of our country off-limits to oil & gas exploration and development, and then holler at our politicians when supply and demand factors push energy costs higher. We slap new regulations on our businesses everyday (does anybody know how many regulations there are? ) and then stand in puzzlement when these same businesses move overseas, where there are cheaper labor costs and fewer regulations. Capital has never been more mobile than it is today, and it will flow to the least point of taxation and regulation.

All of that's good for the poor in other countries, because it is providing infrastructure and jobs overseas. 40% of global consumption now comes from "emerging market" countries, such as India, China, Indonesia, etc., that didn't have this foreign investment a decade ago. For example, I see Intel is investing $650 million for a semiconductor plant in Vietnam, raising local wages from $15/day to $45/day. That's their gain, and our loss. It is reducing poverty faster than all the years of direct handouts from the U.N. and NGOs. That builds up a class of formerly poor people who want what we want -- material possessions.

The biggest obstacles to reducing poverty are corrupt, totalitarian governments. We have enough food to feed the planet, but it's not getting to those who need it. I see we are going to plow another $115 million of food aid (through the UN) to North Korea, for example, but it will most likely be redirected to the military, rather than those who need it most. Same with Africa, the ignored continent.

So I see a need to replace these regimes with ones who care about their own people, and are willing to permit both direct aid and investment that will benefit their citizens, rather than just the "leadership." It is futile to send aid to them now -- it is absolutely not helping them. Regime replacement can be a good thing, and doesn't necessarily have to involve military force. I know that there are a lot of disagreements over Iraq, for example, but at least the torture and killing of hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) has stopped. [I don't want to get drawn into an argument over Iraq here, but the humanitarian aspect should be highlighted].

One of the times that I was stationed in Northern Virginia, I came home to see two men beating a taxi cab driver badly with baseball bats, while perhaps 40-50 people stood by and watched. I went into my apartment and returned with a .45-cal pistol, and stopped the attack. Next thing I knwe, there were police swarming around looking for me -- the crazy with a gun, instead of the attackers (who had fled). This is the way I am. I can't stand to see a bully. If we, as a nation, have the ability to stop a bully masquerading as a national leader, than it is our right and responsibility to do so.

I simply don't see a conspiratorial manipulation into war for the sake of free trade. Islam has been a threat for centuries, and now, with modern technology, it has reached the point where it can destroy us. The development of WMD is their ultimate trump card, and it must be stopped wherever it occurs. The U.N. isn't doing this (witness the advanced state of WMD development in Libya, for example, and also North Korea), so we must. Radical Islam must be confronted, not ignored. We will be destroyed, if we fail. I see the hand of Satan behind it, and he is quite pleased that we are so badly divided as a nation, as a society, and even as a Church.

If the U.N. would organize to the point where it would systematically replace the corrupt, dictatorial regimes on the planet, then reducing poverty and alleviating suffering would have a fighting chance. But the U.N. is too corrupt for that, and needs complete reform or dissolution. It has utterly failed in it's mission. Few of its members live up to the charter, such as providing basic human rights, religious toleration, self-determination, etc. It is more interested in transferring wealth than solving the problems we face.

Absent an effective, multilateral approach, we must do this on our own (or with whatever allies we can find). We are the only superpower, at least until China catches up, so it is our responsibility. God judges nations as well as individuals (Jer. 18), and our failure to act will not escape judgement. We are too busy fighting ourselves to confront the greater evil -- radical Islam, which exploits poverty, among other factors. We can't survive in the long run without ceasing our partisan bickering, and that would mean we can't help others, either, if we crumble into dust as a power. This has been my argument all along. We have had a window of opportunity in the history of mankind to lift the lot of all, and we are squandering it.

I don't know what you can piece together from all of this, poncho. I'm not an intellectual. I'll probably get beat up for this post, from some quarters, but I just see many opportunities that are being frittered away, and time is getting shorter. I do know that we need people in government, at all levels, who realize that they are there to serve, not to enjoy power and privilege. We need citizens who are willing to sacrifice, rather than loot the treasury. We need business owners who seek profits to help others, rather than just for the sake of profits. We need journalists who inform, instead of manipulating information. We need strong church leadership with which to better organize and channel resources to those in need, spread the gospel, and educate us on our responsibilities to each other. We need church members who take our responsibilities seriously, give more of what we can, and do more with what we have. We need the kingdom of Christ, an absolute monarch who will rule us fairly without corruption. Come soon, Jesus, come soon!

 

[poncho]

Thanks for the reply EL. I can see that you put much thought into it. Imho this is the kind of discussion all of us need to be involved in today instead of all the bickering over individual politicians and rooting for our favored political teams.

You've laid down alot of thoughts for consideration and it will take awhile for me to digest, sort through and think about what you have typed in order to reply properly. I have learned an important lesson from you in the few posts we have interacted in my friend and feel that we all benefit from your presence here on BB.

BTW, I think you should be honored for helping your fellow man instead of being chastised but this is the world that we find ourselves in.

I hope you don't mind if it takes some time for me to reply to this latest post. It's been awhile since my brain has gotten this kind of workout and I thank you for your participation, willingness to listen and straight talk.

 

[elijah_lives]

Take your time, poncho. I'll be gone tomorrow for "nuclear perfusion" heart testing, but I'll be back Wednesday.

And despite our differences, I call you a friend...

 

[poncho]

Thanks EL appreciate that. You'll be in my prayers.

 

[Gold Dragon]

elijah_lives, I really enjoyed and agreed with a lot of your last post and felt it provided a lot of excellent intellectual, practical and spiritual insight.

All the best on your heart test and poncho, I hope your bro is ok and I hope he makes a full recovery.

 

[poncho]

Thanks for your kind words, poncho. We all (and I do include myself) tend to say things we regret, and posting on a BB increases that tendency, I think.

I agree.

I agree with all of your definitions, but just don't see much of an alternative to capitalism, given the present state of both domestic and foreign affairs, and the evil heart of man.

I'm not suggesting that we need an alternative. Only that we have been hoodwinked by the corporations into becoming their slaves instead of employees and they should held responsible for the suffering they cause. They have no loyality to America or any other country as I have stated before. Currently they are going to places like China and using captives in prisons that are there for no other reason than political dessent to manufacture goods sold around the world including America. So, when ever you and I go to places and purchase Chinese made goods we are supporting a communist system of slave labor. We like the prices but as Christians shouldn't we be thinking about whether or not we are encouraging and supporting slavery? What price are we to put on human suffering? This is the ugly part of capitlaism and I can't help but think of it everytime I pass a Wal Mart.

We have our own form of captive slave labor in this country that no one is talking about. Prison labor. Most folks would say good put them criminals to work. But they overlook the possiblity that this tend and it is a trend could put them out of manufacturing jobs in time. As more prisons become "privatized" they become more likely to seek profits at the prisoners expence by low wages and forced labor thereby increasing the chances of putting even more law abiding citizens out of work. But that is a side issue.

The bottom line as I see it is that the multinational corporations have no qualms of working with communist regimes and socialist dictatorships in order to increase their bottom line. In fact they may even prefer them to free societies that would hinder them from passing laws in their favor and seek to regulate them by enforcing reasonable environmental and safety precautions and workers rights.

I have known poverty (still do), and I have also spent money foolishly when I was younger. I tithe to spread the gospel, even though my personal income is below $10K -- poverty by any standards. I live in a 100-year old house where the floors have literally caved in; 1/4 of the floors cannot be walked on. (With the labor of my wife and children, and wood we have milled from the forest, we are slowly rebuilding the floors.) My doctor recently cut my prescription drugs down to 11 (from 19), because it is very difficult to purchase them, but they are absolutely necessary. Still, there are some things I can do, in spite of my disabilities, and I owe society for what I can do. I give away most of the furniture I build, because I'd rather see it used by someone who needs it than for it to be "merchandise" in a cold, taxable exchange of cash. I barter computer services for work on my tractor. I think that we all need to work together to improve the lot of those worse off; we have a social responsibility that is vastly ignored due to greed and selfishness.

I'm sorry to hear of your hardships EL and sympathize with you. I too have known poverty and hunger. My father was killed in a car crash when I was just months old and I lived with my mother and widowed grandmother who worked very hard for little money in a laundry. Thankfully my great grandfather rasied hogs and chickens and we got what was called surplus, I doubt younger folks would remember that term. The cheese and peanut butter was great and we ate alot of cornmeal boiled into mush and fried. And yes I agree greed and selfishness are big problems.

The local churches will not help us (or anybody local), because they have apparently "been taken advantage of in the past." It seems to me that the church has failed to do what it can to alleviate poverty (even forgetting my own situation). I see some take multiple vacations a year, one who owns a Lear jet, another who owns maybe a tenth of the county, etc. The current church discussion is whether or not to spend $80,000 on stained glass windows. Yet this is one of the poorest counties in the nation -- nearly half live below the poverty line. So, I see a failure of leadership at all levels: ecclesiastical, local, state, and federal.

Jesus tells us that "the poor you will always have" (Mt 19:21), suggesting that no political/economic system devised by man will eliminate poverty. The commandment against theft tells me that private property rights are to be protected. We are told to work for our needs (2 Thes 3:10) and to protect the poor, the widow, the orphan, and the stranger (too many verses to quote, here). The parables of Jesus seem to deal with money more than anything else, at least on the surface. And King Solomon amassed more wealth then anyone before or since, I think.

I'm reminded of Jesus saying the love of many will grow cold. Even here look how we talk to one another, I'm guilty of it also more so than others and it pains me to be this way. That's why I'm thankful for people like you that set an example we all should try harder to follow.

So, what conclusions can we draw?

We're failing miserably as Christians and we have let our own greed selfishness fears and the IRS take root and control of the house of God.

Property rights don't exist in communism, so we can exclude that system.

We can if we do not look closely at the systems now in place in this country...and those planned for us the future by socialists and what are perceived as ex communists such as Mikhail Gorbachev that are now in the top slots at the United Nations that write policies you and I have to live by now and in the future. Such as those mentioned before, Agenda 21 and sustainable devlopment. Communism hasn't died EL it has just taken on a friendlier face using skillful wordage and complex legalities to pass their ideals onto us by international laws agreements and treaties like NAFTA GATT FTAA CAFTA and now MEFTA by a supposedly benevolent organization.

In 1848 Karl Marx and Frederick Engels wrote a book outlining a political ideology, titled "The Communist Manifesto". Marxism's basic theme is that the proletariat (the "exploited" working class of a capitalistic society) will suffer from alienation and will rise up against the "bourgeoisie" (the middle class) and overthrow the system of "capitalism." After a brief period of rule by "the dictatorship of the proletariat" the classless society of communism would emerge. In his Manifesto Marx described the following ten steps as necessary steps to be taken to destroy a free enterprise society!! Notice how many of these conditions, foreign to the principles that America was founded upon, have now, in 1997, been realized by the concerted efforts of socialist activists? Remember, government interference in your daily life and business is intrusion and deprivation of our liberties!

First Plank: Abolition of property in land and the application of all rents of land to public purposes. (Zoning - Model ordinances proposed by Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover widely adopted. Supreme Court ruled "zoning" to be "constitutional" in 1921. Private owners of property required to get permission from government relative to the use of their property. Federally owned lands are leased for grazing, mining, timber usages, the fees being paid into the U.S. Treasury.)

Second Plank: A heavy progressive or graduated incometax. (Corporate Tax Act of 1909. The 16th Amendment, allegedly ratified in 1913. The Revenue Act of 1913, section 2, Income Tax. These laws have been purposely misapplied against American citizens to this day.)

Third Plank: Abolition of all rights of inheritance. (Partially accomplished by enactment of various state and federal "estate tax" laws taxing the "privilege" of transfering property after death and gift before death.)

Fourth Plank: CONFISCATION OF THE PROPERTY OF ALL EMIGRANTS AND REBELS. (The confiscation of property and persecution of those critical - "rebels" - of government policies and actions, frequently accomplished by prosecuting them in a courtroom drama on charges of violations of non-existing administrative or regulatory laws.)

Fifth Plank: Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. (The Federal Reserve Bank, 1913- -the system of privately-owned Federal Reserve banks which maintain a monopoly on the valueless debt "money" in circulation.)

Sixth Plank: Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State. (Federal Radio Commission, 1927; Federal Communications Commission, 1934; Air Commerce Act of 1926; Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938; Federal Aviation Agency, 1958; becoming part of the Department of Transportation in 1966; Federal Highway Act of 1916 (federal funds made available to States for highway construction); Interstate Highway System, 1944 (funding began 1956); Interstate Commerce Commission given authority by Congress to regulate trucking and carriers on inland waterways, 1935-40; Department of Transportation, 1966.)

Seventh Plank: Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. (Depart-ment of Agriculture, 1862; Agriculture Adjustment Act of 1933 -- farmers will receive government aid if and only if they relinquish control of farming activities; Tennessee Valley Authority, 1933 with the Hoover Dam completed in 1936.)

Eighth Plank: Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies especially for agriculture. (First labor unions, known as federations, appeared in 1820. National Labor Union established 1866. American Federation of Labor established 1886. Interstate Commerce Act of 1887 placed railways under federal regulation. Department of Labor, 1913. Labor-management negotiations sanctioned under Railway Labor Act of 1926. Civil Works Administration, 1933. National Labor Relations Act of 1935, stated purpose to free inter-state commerce from disruptive strikes by eliminating the cause of the strike. Works Progress Administration 1935. Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, mandated 40-hour work week and time-and-a-half for overtime, set "minimum wage" scale. Civil Rights Act of 1964, effectively the equal liability of all to labor.)

Ninth Plank: Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country. (Food processing companies, with the co-operation of the Farmers Home Administration foreclosures, are buying up farms and creating "conglomerates.")

Tenth Plank: Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production. (Gradual shift from private education to publicly funded began in the Northern States, early 1800's. 1887: federal money (unconstitutionally) began funding specialized education. Smith-Lever Act of 1914, vocational education; Smith-Hughes Act of 1917 and other relief acts of the 1930's. Federal school lunch program of 1935; National School Lunch Act of 1946. National Defense Education Act of 1958, a reaction to Russia's Sputnik satellite demonstration, provided grants to education's specialties. Federal school aid law passed, 1965, greatly enlarged federal role in education, "head-start" programs, textbooks, library books.

SOURCE

And those I have tried to bring to the attention of folks here such as Agenda 21 and sustainable development. I've read many of the actual documents including those by people like Henry Kissinger and his ideas of food and population control in his NSSM 200 DIRECTIVE. If you'll go back up to to where I posted the link on Malthusianism and Eugenics you can get a feel for how these policy writters and presidential advisors think of us. We are cattle to be culled and our resources and public assets to be taken under state control and privatized by through a comination of public private partnerships. I think Joan Veon gives us the best description of how these partnerships have come about and what they mean to us. She gives probably the most details on sustainable development and explains them in ways simple folks like me can understand without 8 years of studying legalease. Unfortunately most people will tend to read the websites of the organizations themselves and be convinced by their skillful wordage and terms of global and evironmental responsibilties and say to themselves, that sounds good to me I agree and support it without reading what experts have found buried deep in the globalists complicated jargon. I wish everyone reading this thread would take the time to read and consider what Joan is telling us.

This post is getting quite long and I should be getting ready for bed it's 1:30 in the morning here so I'll let you have the floor or thread in this case and read you reply whenever you have get around to it EL. Please let us know how you made out at the Dr. too. Look forward to your reply.

Oh yeah, thanks Gold Dragon. He's a tough kid, His Dr. says he should be fine and at this time it looks like he won't be needing therapy to which he is glad to hear. He had to go through all that with his back already.

I'm getting pretty sleepy so I hope everyone will excuse the missing and mispelled words. Anybody know of a good spellchecker that works with this board?

[ March 01, 2006, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: poncho ]

 

[elijah_lives]

Ponch, I applaud your fine post, in which I have no disagreement. I know that we are manipulated by the spinmeisters, especially "journalists" who are really "activists" in disguise, manipulating information rather than informing us. I would rather find the truth, regardless of what it is, than to start with a paradigm and attempt to force "facts" to support it. That makes it real difficult to filter out what's real and what's not, and what information is important or otherwise.

I love the founding documents of our Republic, which have basically been twisted and deformed into "principles" that were never intended, and the appearance of a state controlled by it's citizens, instead of the men in black robes who rule from the bench. I think it would take a revolution to return to "ground zero", when the thoughts and actions of our Founding Fathers shook the world with the birth of true liberty. Of course, that is just an observation (advocating rebellion is a crime, I think), but we can't simply push the "reset" button on the video game, and start over.

I still don't buy conspiracy theories about this war, and remain dedicated to fighting terror in all of its forms; it is the scourge of civilization, and threatens the very foundations of our society. All else pales in the face of radical Islam, a relentless foe with patience and momentum on it's side.

In terms of regaining control of our destiny, we need to emphasize truth in education. If this means that we have to start parallel school systems, funded by the church, I think it would enable concerned parents to transfer their kids from the public school system into one more free from the dictates of the state, and less subject to manipulation. It might take a generation or so to counter the current school system, but it took a generation for the public schools to churn out education failures. (I was shocked to learn recently that my high school, Chantilly High is rated in the bottom third of the nation; when I graduated in 1979, it was one of the top ten public schools in the country.) This would place many demands on our churches, especially financial, and would require cooperation between various congregations. We need to ignore the trivial issues that divide us, and worry only about the "heaven and hell" issues that absolutely block salvation (not a good way to put it, but I can't find the words I'm looking for.)

I'll cede the floor back to you, poncho, and thank you for an excellent discourse that I have enjoyed tremendously. I won't know about my heart testing results until late this week or early next week. Now, I have to figure out how to pay for it!

 

[elijah_lives]

Gold Dragon, thank you for your kind words. What do you think about all of this?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by elijah_lives:
Gold Dragon, thank you for your kind words. What do you think about all of this?

I'm obviously not a believer in conspiracy theories. I don't have enough faith in humans to cooperate to the extent required by theories suggested to pull them off.

Regarding the media, they definitely come with their spins and biases. Everyone does. And the consolidation of media ownership is a concern. But I think simple human greed prevents them from cooperating the way conspiracy theorists suggest.

Regarding globalization, I don't understand how poncho can call it communist. I see globalization as the brain-child and of most benefit to capitalist corporate American and to a lesser extent, Europe.

I do not consider myself anti-globalizaionist, but I think many of the problems of globalization are things that sustainable developement tries to address. Globalization encourages corporations to enter poorer countries and use their human and natural resources for short term profit. It may help with much needed job and wealth creation in those countries. But if globalization isn't balanced with the concepts of sustainable development that also look out for the long term growth of the social and environmental elements in developing countries, corporations will run roughshod over the foreign countries often without the social and environmental laws and infrastructure in place to keep them in check. The countries are at the mercy of the corporation which can pull out and leave at any time they wish and hop on over to the next developing country in need of $$$ and jobs.

If the corporations themselves adopt some concepts of sustainable development in their business model, that would be ideal. Short of that, governments need to be aware of these potential issues and not just see the $$ that corporations tempt them with.

Regarding the conspiracy theory of terrorism, I defer to Occam's Razor.