Suzi Q

2BHisown,

I am mocking to some degree because it is what I have seen over the years. And you say correctly, I have been a sound biblical preacher all my life. Yes, I use the same Bible that was given to me in 1945. It is well marked throughout, Old and New Testaments, and no more room for notes on the blank pages.

I just like to point out that there is a place for timely, illustrative sermons in the life of a congregation to shake them, in this modern age, from their lethargy associated with modernity. Some would say not exactly a biblical, theological sermon, but ever so relevent to the times.

Spurgeon said we should never preach a sermon that does not include the gospel, the love of Christ and most importantly, the love for Christ. I quite agree.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I'm not sure of the time frame or year but it seems that the puritans preached very sound biblical sermons with perhaps a rare incident or illustration! This seems to have grown far out of bounds until today 'sermons' are preached consisting of counseling on relationships, business success, how to set goals and such with only a rare scripture read! What an extreme about face and violation of what God is holding men of God accountable for!

Actually I was pretty sure you were a sound preacher of the word! Thank the Lord! I'm sure many here are also but I also think exhortation to trim down the incidents and illustrations and to focus on God's word would be pleasing to HIm!

The men in our church just finished a study of Lloyd-Jones, Preaching and Preachers. I think it must have been a rewarding study!

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0310278708/?tag=baptis04-20

 

Yes, I have sat under his ministry in London, and heard his great illustrations during his biblical sermons.

The service started with an opening hymn, followed by prayer and then a reading of scripture. He proceeded then to preach from the word for about 45-55 minutes. Announcements were left to a printed folder and the offering was received in boxes at the rear of the church.

What a marvellous preacher! What a marvellous service. He took over, as you must know, from another biblical expositor, G. Campbell Morgan.

One blessing of reaching this age (I am to be 80 in January, you know)is the exposure to these great preachers of old.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Wow, you have most surely been blest!

I read a lot of Lloyd Jones and in fact I'm doing my own study now of his Studies in 1 John, because our pastor is going through 1 John on Wednesday nights and I want to get the most from it!
I've also read Campbell Morgan in the past but dont have any of his at this time! I trimmed down the books when I last moved, sadly!
You are so right, to know how blest you are to be almost 80 and to have listened and benefitted from such excellence! God is good!
Blessings Jim!

 

El_Guero:

.

Have mercy! Surely you jest!

 

Wow. I thought sin was the problem. Then I find out it's PowerPoint.

Which version is more depraved, PowerPoint 2000, or PowerPoint 2003? I want to stay away from the really bad stuff...

 

Humor is healthy. However all the sarcasm on BB would seem to render much benefit to young christians and ministers negligible! Would you like to make a viable contribution to the discussion? I'd be interested in your real thoughts on how it is in your church.

 

I was being sarcastic, maybe too much so. I apologize.

I was simply pointing out that objecting to Powerpoint and linking that to the decline in Biblical preaching is a big stretch...a logical flaw, IMO. People not using their Bibles--that is not a function of technology, nor is it a result of such. That is a heart condition...in existence long before Bill Gates gave us toys to play with.

When I arrived here nearly seven years ago, I would have a dozen or so kids to share the Truth with on Wednesdays. Maybe one or two brought their Bibles (10-15%?). At the time, because of money, facilities, and practical concerns, Powerpoint wasn't an option.

This past week, 160 of our kids were here for Wednesday Night Live. Probably 30-35% had their Bibles with them. And PowerPoint was integrally involved in the service.

The increase in those bringing had nothing to do with PowerPoint. I would say the same if there had been fewer who brought their scriptures with them (probably). In our crowd Wednesday night, we had folks who are mature believers in Christ (their spiritual maturity would shame most of our adults), others making good progress, some who are just starting out, many curious types, and a few who are here that aren't very interested in God right now. But there's no doubt that we have many, many more "hungry students" both in number and percentage now than we did several years ago.

For us, there has been a marked increase in students hungry for God's truth...because:

• A core group of adults who have invested heavily in the spiritual lives of our students.
• Several families have made the family members' walk with God a central focus.
• Many students (God bless 'em) that have decided that even though their families aren't interested in God, they will be. A good example is my Student Worship coordinator, my lead guitarist, and six of my fourteen DiscipleNow counselors this past year. They are all now young adults who are living for God and are the spiritual leaders in their homes (and have been for years).
• Our student ministry leadership has a focused, intentional, thorough game plan of discipleship.
• Our church went from being a sick church with a healthy youth group to a healthy church with a healthy youth group.
• Our students are challenged. We don't stay on the surface. There are venues in which we are more elementary...simply because we know quite a few baby Christians or non-Christians will be there. But in other venues, we dig.
• Our students are not "hood ornaments" at our church. They actively serve in virtually every area of church life. We have students who are lead Sunday School teachers...they are Children's Church team leaders...They lead worship and plan services on Wednesday night...They direct, plan, and conduct over 60% of our Vacation Bible School (last year, 55 students were on the VBS faculty).
• We do our very best here to avoid tradition simply for tradition's sake. If we have a ritual, then we demand of ourselves that we be able to offer why we do things the way we do. Keeping the same order of service "just because we always have" is silly. So is doing PowerPoint "just because we always have," or because "that other church does it." I, and my leadership, believe in articulating the why's of the what's that we are involved in.
• "Faith without works is dead." I believe strongly that we must minister to all of what God created. God created us as spiritual, emotional, physical beings. I have no problem starting from any of these starting points--as long as our ultimate goal is to talk of God's redeeming love. I can start with a sermon, a counseling session, or a hot meal. I don't care where we start. I care deeply where we finish. I'm not sure I can put it any plainer than that.

PowerPoint is like a bunch of other stuff in church...a tool. You can worship the tool, or use the tool to build. (I vote option #2, BTW). But pronouncing the tool as useless with blanket statements is not solving the problem, nor is it accurately defining it.

 

Sounds like God is blessing your investment in the lives of the young people there.
Guess I still have difficulty with PowerPoint and see it as rather conforming to the world rather than having the world conform to God's word. Why wouldnt a program such as 'Buy a kid a bible' in the church work? What a great investment into the life of a youth! It would be theirs to mark and keep and learn and grow from whereas the PowerPoint is only for the moment. Just a thought. I see how practical the newer means are but practicality isnt always the best. It seems such a technical, uninvolved, brief contact with what is displayed and more difficult to retain the info shown.

I do think you seem seriously interested in the youth there and would pray to see such involvement multiplied over and over!
More are involved; more are bringing their bibles with them; that is good to expect from them.
It is so difficult today to separate the world from our youth! It is such a natural inclination of youth to bow to their peers and conform! Those who decide to follow Christ no matter what, no matter who will be blest, as you will by your influence and time invested!
God bless, not in focus on numbers but in genuine changed lives, that grow in knowledge and wisdom of God!

 

I do not see how placing the Word of God upon a screen is "conforming to the world." Perhaps you could explain that one. What biblical principle is being violated when I project the very words of Scripture upon the screen so that everyone present may read it?

In the early centuries of the church, most Christians were illiterate. How was the Word communicated then? It was centuries before folks "brought their Bibles to church." I believe God is able to use all means necessary to communicate the truth of His word.

Don't get me wrong...I want my kids to bring their copy of the scriptures. But I simply can't imagine what angle you're approaching this from to call it "worldly."

 

Do you have adverts every ten minutes to mimic the telly programming?

When I see a screen in a church, I depart. Guess it's an age thingy.

Even in my era, there were many illiterates who learned to read through reading the scriptures in church, and listening to the word being preached.

My father could neither read nor write, but he could sing every hymn in the books and recite scriptures better than many even to-day.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Well, LOL, perhaps we'll just have to file that one under 'generational gap'!
Yes, all of those young people need their own bible. There must be a way to make that happen so they can take it home with them and read more, hopefully!
As to a 'biblical principle' being violated I cant say! I just see a group with bibles in hand, marking them, committing passages to memory to be more lasting. Thats a personal opinion so lets not take it to the bank! The important thing is to get the word into their mind and their life!
As to the early centuries, there are countries even today where a little shred of the Word is such a treasure that people run for miles to share it with others! Oh that a situation of such respect for God's word would happen here!
In my lifetime I've given away many bibles but am no longer able to do such! I think it to be a wonderful blessing to put God's word into the hands of someone who is interested in knowing it and Him!

 

In each congregation, you have different learning styles.

Some folks "learn by doing." Why do we have tactile exercises for kids in Sunday School? They learn about Noah and the Ark by placing the animals inside.

Some folks are better auditory learners. They learn by hearing. They listen well.

Some are visual. They learn well by seeing it.

Why not use what you can and reach out through as many ways as possible to communicate the truth of the Gospel?

I never seek to diminish preaching. I seek to communicate the Good News (preaching) through all manners possible.

The Bible is replete with learning experiences that didn't involve sitting in a pew. Jesus pointed at a fig tree. He told of fish...sowers...seeds. He held a coin in His hand. He broke bread. Jeremiah bought a field. He buried a sash. He broke a pot.

Jim...I know you dislike the screens and such, but I would never cheapen the word of God with advertisements.

Jim, your father had a hunger for the things of God, obviously. That has little to do with technology one way or another. A powerpoint slide wouldn't have given him the hunger, nor would it have robbed him of it. It's just a tool...just as the artwork of centuries ago before Gutenberg's press...just as the buildings many of us meet in. We should never worship tools. We should use them to build.

 

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I purchased a case of 144 Bibles 2 years ago to give to folks who either needed one, wanted one, or became a Christian and didn't have a copy of the Word.

I ran out last month. Praise God. Time for another case. I'll just pick up where you left off bro...

 

I do. "We could offer to babysit her children for free while she is working, so she wouldn’t have to pay a babysitter."

None in your church?

 

The 'church of Christ', the true church, is one body of many members. Gifts are given for the edification of the body, not for going out and using in the world!
That is not to say we dont help those who are unregenerate. We help them but their greatest need of all is to come to faith in Christ ! If hungry we feed them, etc. We remember all the while though that they are in dire need of a Savior! Just going about spreading good, is only caring for the physical body, certainly important but their spiritual needs are of much greater significance.
The body, using their gifts can accomplish much more working together than individually, just as two hands, a back and two feet can accomplish more in moving heavy objects.
Believers within the church are to be one in committment to Christ in faith. They are mutually nurturing, caring, supportive of each other, always building up the body. Each persons gift is different, perhaps to exhort, encourage, pray, preach. All of us are not preachers, but all of us can pray and support the body, which 'perfects the work of the ministry' and causes it to be a united whole.

 

God Bless you in your ministry as His Word goes forward in the Kingdom. Perhaps I'm a little too critical, but I saw in your "story line", a social gospel of which you perhaps did not mean to portray.

I went back and looked at that which followed, again, and saw more clearly your intent. I believe what you show in this "big, perhaps obese, self satisfied church is their apathy toward those in need, right before their noses. And I agree, and understand from the stand point of God's desire is not for us to build great monuments, with all the royal trappings, with far flung ministries, and then there is little if any left to reach those in our immediate vicinity; and there are many. Yet in your "story" all we must do is help people out, and they will turn to God, automatically. When they do "everything is going to be alright". No more problems in this life.

I know that is not what you meant, but the following points in that direction - "The point is... once she sees the love of Christ, she will be drawn to Him.
After she gets saved, baptized, and joins the church, she, as well as her children, will be taught about Him in Sunday School,
She will attend Bible Study on Wednesday evenings to get a deeper understanding of her Savior, she will start helping others see the love of Christ by using her spiritual gifts to do ministry." Oh, if it were only so.

And my little tale was no better, other than I wished to show, I believe even the "huge churches", whether Baptist, Full Gospel, Methodist or other's, they do make some attempt to contact those around them. I could be wrong, but hope not.

 

We should not lose sight to whom Jesus is talking to and about. It is the Kingdom people. Jesus while on earth cared not even to give us (Gentile) the time of day. I believe we must go back and begin in verse 34 for understanding. There is only one nation, and those of that nation Israel (His covenant people) are the only ones ever promised inheriting the earth.

We saw at the Jewish Pentecost all things were in "common". This will be the way it is in the "Kingdom", and it was at hand. Israel refused. Not until after Damascus Road can we find where we Gentiles were ever involved (other than a proselyte) in being "justified".

Today our first priority is to give the Word, being ambassadors of Christ Jesus while taking care of our own, just as the nation of Israel stayed within their "system". When the Jew took in the "stranger" they took care of them, and treated them as one of them, for they became as them of justification by faith, being circumcised, baptized, making blood sacrifice, and keeping their laws, but could not enter into the "inner court" of the Temple. They never went after a Gentle to preach to them. The Gentile came to them.

But of course today it is different, as the Idol worshipers are back where they began. They today being Gentiles in God's eye can now come into justification just as we. They can now by the grace of God through faith be justified. But I believe the process is the same. As we are all of one make up now, we preach and teach His Word, and they will come. When they do we should first take care of them, if they need help, and with what is left over, the Love offering goes to those "outsiders" who have not responded to His Word. And to tell you the truth, I'm not sure we should do that. The sooner we proclaim His Word to the world (putting our main thrust into spreading the "grace commission", and not try to feed the world); adding to the Body of Christ Church, the sooner we will be "caught up to Him".