Sweeny ISD (Texas) Students May Sit During the Pledge

[jaigner]

Is this a common sentiment among your fellow public school teachers?

as a child, did you not say each day, "I Love you"?

Not every day, but often. I didn't pledge allegiance to them in a militaristic fashion every morning. Additionally, "allegiance" or respect/obedience to ones parents falls in line with the Christian ideal for the family. Giving allegiance to an earthly kingdom, it would seem, falls distinctly outside those lines.

So you are saying you would be unwilling to join the military or hold public office?

Public office is not something I aspire to do. I can't say absolutely never, but not very likely.

I would not voluntarily join the military as it stands today. I'm not a true pacifist, but I wouldn't ever put myself in a situation where I might end the life of an image-bearer. If our situation ever changed seriously and I were drafted, I would still do my best to stay out of that situation unless it was absolutely necessary to defend further loss of life (white, brown, black, Christian, Muslim, American, foreign, whatever).

I don't have a problem with people who do, and I'm proud of my grandfathers, who served in WWII.

 

[Baptist Believer]

After entering the tear gas house, and taking the mask off, you had to recite whatever general order you were told to, before they let you out. Same thing in the 55 degree salt water pool. You recite first.

Sounds like great motivation!

That reminds me of when I was in Army ROTC in college: The Captain informed us midway through the knot-tying training session that our knots would be the only thing that would keep us from slapping the pavement at terminal velocity when we rappelled off the seven-story fire tower to the pavement below.

There was a tangible shift in the level of attention to detail within moments. :laugh:

 

[jaigner]

Is this a common sentiment among your fellow public school teachers?

Oh, forgot to address this.

No, at least not in this part of the country. The nationalistic sentiment is huge, by and large.

And you can love or hate the public school system, but most teachers are in there day in and day out, giving their all the teach the children who are sent to them. Most of us don't agree with the system, but we do our best because we love children and love our content area.

 

[Salty]

...Public office is not something I aspire to do. I can't say absolutely never, but not very likely

If the Lord called you to run for public office, and you won the election, would you then take the oath of office?

Very simple YES or NO

 

[Alcott]

So let me ask you - do you love your mother or your father? According to Matt 6, you are not permitted to love them both !

No, since they're no longer here to love. Anything that may breathe life into that word outside of our current incidental experience would be opposed to the biblical meaning of 'love,' which necessarily results in action-- which I cannot and am not capable of in regard to them.

 

[jaigner]

If the Lord called you to run for public office, and you won the election, would you then take the oath of office?

Very simple YES or NO

Things aren't always black and white.

And here's the deal. I am almost certain that I would run for office, but if I did, I would probably affirm instead of swear.

 

[Salty]

Things aren't always black and white.

And here's the deal. I am almost certain that I would run for office, but if I did, I would probably affirm instead of swear.

You wold make a great politican, as you cant seem to answer the question that is asked

 

[Don]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America; and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

-----

Fold One Life on Earth
Fold Two Eternal Life
Fold Three The veteran who gave a portion of his life for the defense of the United States
Fold Four Humanity's Weaker Nature and the American's reliance on God during both peacetime and wartime
Fold Five Tribute to our Country
Fold Six The state of the American's heart
Fold Seven The United States Armed Forces
Fold Eight Tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that humanity might see the light of day
Fold Nine A tribute to Motherhood
Fold Ten A tribute to Fatherhood
Fold Eleven The eleventh fold, in the eyes of a Jewish citizen, represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon, and glorifies, in their eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Fold Twelve The twelfth fold, in the eyes of a Christian citizen, represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in their eyes, God the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost.

-----

Regarding the Great Seal, the official explanation of the colors was given by Charles Thomson, who took the symbolism for the colors from a book called Elements of Heraldy by Antoine Pyron du Martre:
The colours of the pales are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valor, and Blue, the colour of the Chief signifies vigilance, perseverance & justice.

 

[Don]

Partial Sources: U.S. Army Military History Institute; iCasualties.org
CONFLICT NAME APPROX. SPAN CASUALTIES
War of Independence 1775-1783 25,000
Northwest Indian War 1785-1795 1,221
Quasi-War 1798-1800 20
Barbary Wars 1801-1815 35
War of 1812 1812-1815 20,000
1st Seminole War 1817-1818 30
2nd Seminole War 1835-1842 1,500
Mexican-American War 1846-1848 13,283
3rd Seminole War 1855-1858 26
Civil War 1861-1865 623,026
Indian Wars 1865-1898 919
Spanish-American War 1898 2,446
Philippine War 1898-1902 4,196
Boxer Rebellion 1900-1901 37
Mexican Revolution 1914-1919 35
Haiti Occupation 1915-1934 146
World War 1 1917-1918 116,708
World War 2 1941-1945 407,316
Korean War 1950-1953 36,914
Vietnam War 1964-1973 58,169
El Salvador 1980-1992 20
Beirut 1982-1984 266
Persian Gulf "Support" 1987-1988 39
Invasion of Grenada 1983 19
Invasion of Panama 1989 40
Persian Gulf War 1991 269
Somalia 1992-1993 43
Bosnia 1995 12
Afghanistan 2002-2011 1,423
Iraq 2003-2011 4,430

 

[Don]

What does the flag of the United States signify? A country that adopted, in the first amendment of its constitution, the statement: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....

 

[Don]

Not asking anyone to pledge allegiance to a country over allegiance to God; simply putting out a reminder that this country, when it was formed, made it a point to specify that one of our greatest freedoms is to exercise our freedom of religion.

Having spent time in countries that aren't allowed such freedom, I have a somewhat different perspective on supporting a country that does.

 

[Salty]

Don, thank you for those posts

Red Skelton - Pledge of Allegiance

 

[NiteShift]

Giving allegiance to an earthly kingdom, it would seem, falls distinctly outside those lines.

A republic is not a kingdon. Sovereignty is with the people. And frankly I can't see why you would object to pledging to be "under God".

I would not voluntarily join the military as it stands today.

That's probably best for all involved. :tonofbricks:

 

[Robert Snow]

You wold make a great politican, as you cant seem to answer the question that is asked

You really have a problem with people who don't serve in the armed forces, don't you?

 

[Baptist Believer]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America; and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Not trying to nitpick, but the actual Pledge does not have the comma between "one nation" and "under God."

In 1954, when Congress modified the Pledge in the middle of the Communist scare, they turned a political assertion "one nation, indivisible" (a rejection of the right of secession) into a theological assertion, "one nation under God, indivisible" (which sounds nice, but doesn't necessarily mean much).

Those of us who believe that all political entities are "under God" (that is, under the authority of God) see nothing particularly noteworthy about that. At best, the political entity known as the United States is irrelevant in the Kingdom of God. At worst, it is under judgement. The Soviet Union was "under God," even if they did not recognize it.

Some make the argument that the Pledge leads people to make the acknowledgement that we are under the authority of God, so it's a good thing. Well, that's just underscores that the Pledge (since 1954) has become a way for the government to urge students to make a theological assertion every morning, whether or not they believe it. Historically, Baptists have always rejected that kind of government meddling with the religious convictions of it's citizens, especially children, who may not be unduly influenced by their peers and authority figures to comply.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Not asking anyone to pledge allegiance to a country over allegiance to God; simply putting out a reminder that this country, when it was formed, made it a point to specify that one of our greatest freedoms is to exercise our freedom of religion.

Having spent time in countries that aren't allowed such freedom, I have a somewhat different perspective on supporting a country that does.

I agree!

However, we need to consider that since the Pledge requires students to make a theological assertion, "one nation under God," that we are trampling freedom of religion to some degree when we use the authority and influence of the government over children to promote their affirmation of this theological assertion every morning as part of a citizenship ritual.

True freedom of religion requires the ability to have freedom from religion without undue government influence or social ostracism if a citizen abstains. In a public school classroom, students would find that they are under heavy pressure to conform to the expectations of their teacher and the actions of their peers. They face something very close to compulsion.

 

[NiteShift]

"one nation under God, indivisible" (which sounds nice, but doesn't necessarily mean much).

Or maybe it does mean something. It is a statement of the precedence of God's authority above that of the nation.

Those of us who believe that all political entities are "under God" (that is, under the authority of God) see nothing particularly noteworthy about that.

Then why object to saying it?

Well, that's just underscores that the Pledge (since 1954) has become a way for the government to urge students to make a theological assertion every morning, whether or not they believe it. Historically, Baptists have always rejected that kind of government meddling with the religious convictions of it's citizens, especially children, who may not be unduly influenced by their peers and authority figures to comply.

As the OP points out, individual colleges are free to not require the pledge. Local school boards are free to dispense with the pledge if they want. Is there a problem with local communities expressing their patriotism and their belief in God (or not) as they choose?

 

[jaigner]

A republic is not a kingdon. Sovereignty is with the people. And frankly I can't see why you would object to pledging to be "under God".

It's Satan's domain and has often looked antithetical to God's Kingdom. There is nothing inherently Christian in the founding documents of this country, either. Some of the founders were Christians, some were nominal Christians, and others weren't at all.

The fact that some of them had some concept of creating a Christian society doesn't make it Christian in any authentic sense. It's never been Christian and, though God has ultimate domain in the affairs of humans, it has never been under God.

 

[billwald]

>A republic is not a kingdon. Sovereignty is with the people.

Non sequitur. When Rome was a republic half the people were slaves. North Korea is a republic. Is sovereignty with the people?

 

[Salty]

You really have a problem with people who don't serve in the armed forces, don't you?

No I do not - I just have a problem with people who go off on a tangent and do not answer the questioned that is asked.

FTR - I have no probem that Obama was never in the military- he is still the Commander in Chief