Sympathy for the Arminian Part 2

[Herald]

We need to be careful in reading election in an unqualified manner when reading how the prophets appeal to the covenant nation of Israel. There is not a one-to-one correlation between the covenant nation of Israel and God's elect. God has one group of elect individuals from the time of Adam. That group does not include all from the covenant nation of Israel.

 

[convicted1]

Ame, Brother, amen.


God's anger was kindled against Israel, yet His hand was stretched forth for His elect, the remnant, so that the election by grace would stand.


All of us are born on equal ground, lost, worthy of eternal death. God sent His Son to procure those whom He chose beforehand to be saved.

We need to be careful in reading election in an unqualified manner when reading how the prophets appeal to the covenant nation of Israel. There is not a one-to-one correlation between the covenant nation of Israel and God's elect. God has one group of elect individuals from the time of Adam. That group does not include all from the covenant nation of Israel.

[/B]

 

[convicted1]

Brother, we are commanded to present the gospel, and it will do one of two things, convict or condemn. God isn't obligated to save any of us, but in His mercy, He has chosn to save some. Now, if Jesus died/atoned for everyone, then everyone would be saved. Look up the Greek word for propitiation. It means "payment, appease God's wrath". So if there is a universal atonement, then God's wrath is no longer on sinners, plus a "double payment" is made. The one Jesus paid, and then the sinner pays for their sins in torment.

So a god who didn't atone for them somehow made an appeal to come, knowing fully they couldn't, and then reacted accordingly based on their actions? Willis, how do you go from having a solid theology to a completely illogical and impossible one

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So a god who didn't atone for them somehow made an appeal to come, knowing fully they couldn't, and then reacted accordingly based on their actions? Willis, how do you go from having a solid theology to a completely illogical and impossible one

Who said they couldn't come? Do you have scripture that says that? Why are you captive to that thinking? I believe you have fallen prey to that "Limited" Atonement misunderstanding. And perhaps that hard-line soteriology among some Calvinists, (which you rarely find among Primitives & OR Baptists) I would retrace my steps if I were you to re-evaluating Atonement as a subject matter. The Atonement described in Doctrines of Grace is more in lines to a "particular" or I prefer "Definite" Atonement." That proper way of defining it is a huge paradigm shift in itself.

But even if you disagree with all of this, you yourself still have a touch of the wanting to appeal for a universal atonement....one where everyone can be saved if they only want to....isnt that your whole argument? If only humans would get a clue & hop to it, then everyone would be saved. But what if nobody gets that want to be saved bug? Then what.....Primarily because of human desire to sin they all go to hell. Is that your proposed theology, your plan for salvation?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother, we are commanded to present the gospel, and it will do one of two things, convict or condemn. God isn't obligated to save any of us, but in His mercy, He has chosn to save some. Now, if Jesus died/atoned for everyone, then everyone would be saved. Look up the Greek word for propitiation. It means "payment, appease God's wrath". So if there is a universal atonement, then God's wrath is no longer on sinners, plus a "double payment" is made. The one Jesus paid, and then the sinner pays for their sins in torment.

BINGO!!!:thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

Who said they couldn't come? Do you have scripture that says that? Why are you captive to that thinking? I believe you have fallen prey to that "Limited" Atonement misunderstanding. And perhaps that hard-line soteriology among some Calvinists, (which you rarely find among Primitives & OR Baptists) I would retrace my steps if I were you to re-evaluating Atonement as a subject matter. The Atonement described in Doctrines of Grace is more in lines to a "particular" or I prefer "Definite" Atonement." That proper way of defining it is a huge paradigm shift in itself.

But even if you disagree with all of this, you yourself still have a touch of the wanting to appeal for a universal atonement....one where everyone can be saved if they only want to....isnt that your whole argument? If only humans would get a clue & hop to it, then everyone would be saved. But what if nobody gets that want to be saved bug? Then what.....Primarily because of human desire to sin they all go to hell. Is that your proposed theology, your plan for salvation?

If they aren't made willing to come, they cannot come! Its quite simple.

 

[webdog]

Brother, we are commanded to present the gospel, and it will do one of two things, convict or condemn. God isn't obligated to save any of us, but in His mercy, He has chosn to save some. Now, if Jesus died/atoned for everyone, then everyone would be saved. Look up the Greek word for propitiation. It means "payment, appease God's wrath". So if there is a universal atonement, then God's wrath is no longer on sinners, plus a "double payment" is made. The one Jesus paid, and then the sinner pays for their sins in torment.

You are now just regurgitating the cal talking points without logically addressing my point. God is not a God if illogical rationale, He is a God of reason. Propitiation when being used in context always speaks of appeasing Gods wrath against sin. It is not an automatic get out of hell free ticket. Apart from faith nobody is saved. The meal has been purchased, but nobody is forced to eat. Failure to eat does not mean the meal has not been purchased. That is the logic your new theology holds to.

 

[convicted1]

You are now just regurgitating the cal talking points without logically addressing my point. God is not a God if illogical rationale, He is a God of reason. Propitiation when being used in context always speaks of appeasing Gods wrath against sin. It is not an automatic get out of hell free ticket. Apart from faith nobody is saved. The meal has been purchased, but nobody is forced to eat. Failure to eat does not mean the meal has not been purchased. That is the logic your new theology holds to.

I am not regurgitating anything Brother. I am showing you that Jesus' atonement appeased God's wrath concerning sin. Jesus didn't pay someone's sin debt that they might be saved, but that they would be saved. The Saviour on the cross was a Surety that procures salvation, not just potentially saves. God makes the unwilling willing, iow. Not forcefully so, but "by My lovingkindness have I drawn thee".

Ezek. 34:22-31

22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.

Now, let's follow this up with some passages of scripture in John:

John 6:37-44

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Notice here He said the SHALL come to me, not "I drawed them and they refused to.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. So, if Jesus died for everyone, then He has lost quite a bit, seeing multitudes died lost.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. No one, not even you and I, could have approached Him unless we had been given to Jesus by God. We are His sheep, and Jesus, as our Surety, procured salvation for us. It's an actuality, and not a potentiality.

John 8:37-47

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

These were not the Saviour's sheep, therefore they couldn't truly understand what Jesus was speaking about.

John 10:1-5

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. Here, Jesus takes this to a personal level and says He calls is own sheep by name.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Jesus takes this passage all the way to the personal level. He showed He will call His sheep, and they will follow whithersoever He goes, and will flee from Satan.

John 10:11-15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. Jesus gave His life, a ransom for many. He laid down His life for His sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This passage parallels Ezekiel 34. We, as Gentiles, were the sheep that were not of His fold, that He procured on the cross.

John 10:25-29

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Jesus came to give His sheep eternal life, and no one else. A number that no man can number, that is as the sand of the sea. He didn't have to offer salvation to one person, and would have been just to destroy Adam and Eve, but in His mercy, He didn't.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Again, He came to save His people, His sheep, from their sins(Matt. 1:21.)


contined.......

 

[convicted1]

John 17:6-10

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

I believe this passage is self-explanitory, imo.

John17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Here, Jesus expanded it to include all of the others who God chose from the foundation of the world to save. Now, follow up with Romans 8, Ephesians 1, and 1 John 2.

 

[webdog]

Willis, you have bought into the context ripping hook, line and sinker. You have also assumed that sheep and the other sheep refer to gentiles, when a proper hermeneutic readily dismisses that notion. Even the 'other sheep' are not gentiles but the Jews of the dispersion, tribulation and millennial Jews. The sheep in verse 10 are no different than those in 11 and 14 in John chapter 10, but from a different place / time. The fact is the audience would understand Jesus' self designation as 'Shepherd' from the way God was called a “Shepherd over Israel (Genesis 49:24, Psalm 23:1; 80:1), and Christ specifically as Israel’s Shepherd (Zechariah 13:7, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25; 5:4). A shepherd and his sheep are used as a Jewish relationship in the Bible, both OT and NT.

In regards to the atonement, if His death alone saved, faith is rendered unnecessary. I know you will counter God chose to use faith as the means to save, but only those like kyredneck and pinoybaptist are honest enough to understand where this logical conclusion MUST end at, and that is eternal salvation requires nothing...not even faith...in saving. In addition, none of creation can be redeemed as Christ's atonement doesn't apply to anything but the 'elect' according to you.