Yes, that was a faux pas on my part. Meant to add 'guilty' in there when I copied and pasted the phrase.
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T - Total Depravity
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Who said anything about "unconditionally" or "imputed"??? You agreed that death is the penalty for violating Genesis 2:17 and thus the wages of sin. God cant apply wages to anyone who did not actually earn them. That would be unjust on God's part. Yet infants die without any separate individual acts of sin proving that they actually sinned in union with Adam when Adam sinned or else they would not suffer death.
All men actually sinned in Adam as all mankind were actually existing in the loins, union of nature when Adam sinned. They were created in Adam and the entire human nature existed in Adam and acted when Adam sinned.
The fact that death reigned between Adam and Moses proves that both sin and death came through one man breaking one law in the garden of Eden (Gen. 2:17) rather than any individualized personal violation of law as neither the law of moses or conscience were designated by God as the means through which death would enter the world but death entered the world by one man and one act by that one man. Therefore all "in Adam" die as all were created in Adam when Adam was created. Adam is never attributed with "life" but only "death." Christ alone is attributed with "life" and so "all in Christ" are made alive. However, just as mankind had to be created in Adam to be in Adam so men have to be created in Christ to be in Christ and that is why we have the word "receive" in Romans 5:17.
Now, you and webdog argue the same must be true for the latter part of Romans 5:19 for all mankind! Thus you insist Romans 5:19 must teach universalism if my argument were correct. However, you purposely miscontrue my argument as not all in Adam are in Christ but all that are in Christ are in Christ by a creative act just as all in Adam are in Adam by a creative act. You want to distorty and deny the truth that entrance into both is a creative act of God but not all created in Adam are created in Christ. Therefore, "many" and "all" in reference to Christ are not the same "many" and "all" in reference to Adam. ALL created in Christ are made righteous by his one act of obedience just as ALL created in Adam are made sinners, condemned to death by one act of disobedience by Adam.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Of course you will either ignore, pervert or deny that mankind must be CREATED IN both Adam and Christ to be in them at all.
Infants dying does NOT prove they sinned in Adam. Animals die, can an animal sin?
Your problem is you interpret scripture to agree with your presuppositions, not what it really says. You presume Original Sin is true, and then interpret scripture to attempt to prove it. You jump to unrealistic and unreasonable assumptions when you do this. This is a perfect example, the fact that infants die does not prove they have sinned, as animals die, and they do not sin.
Then Jesus Christ would be a sinner, because the scriptures say he was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh".
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Jesus was constantly called the "son of David". He could not be descended from David from God, he was descended from David from his mother Mary. He inherited DNA from David (and Adam) through Mary.
This superstition that Jesus was born of a virgin to escape a sin nature is just that, pure superstition. The scriptures themselves call David Jesus's father;
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Incorrect. First, if Romans 5:12-14 was teaching Original Sin, then it should apply to all men, not men from Adam to Moses only. Paul is simply showing there was sin in the world even though there was no written law, and the fact that men from Adam to Moses spiritually died proves this. He had already said that men without law shall perish without the law because they offend the law written on their hearts in Romans 2. He did not so much as mention Adam here. Why not?
The fact that Paul distinguishes between men from Adam to Moses and men after Moses is because now men (Jews) are condemned because they broke the revealed law. Paul was addressing Jews who knew the law (Rom 7:1).
If Original Sin were true (it isn't) then Paul would not have distinguished between men born before Moses and those after, as they would ALL be condemned in Adam. So the fact that Paul does distinguish between these persons proves he is not arguing Original Sin.
It is not just Webdog and I that make this argument, serious theologians throughout the centuries have recognized your inconsistent application (many others have made your exact argument).
If all men are unconditionally condemned because of Adam's one sin, then likewise all men MUST be unconditionally made righteous through Jesus's one obedience. To argue otherwise is to be inconsistent with the type of argument Paul is presenting. MANY scholars have recognized this.
In fact, the #1 proof text used by Universalists is Romans 5:18-19. They have argued these verses for centuries. And if sin is unconditionally imputed to all men through Adam's one sin, they have a perfectly valid and very solid argument. But we know universalism is error, therefore your argument is error.
No, what Paul is doing is showing that Adam set a legal precedent. By his one sin, he introduced the condemnation and payment for sin, which is death. From Adam forward, the wages of all sin is death. He set that in motion. This is how Adam "made many sinners". The term "sinner" is a term of judgment, just like the word "felon".
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Likewise, Jesus set the legal precedent for righteousness when he trusted his Father, dying on the cross believing his Father to raise him from the dead. Now, when we believe on Jesus we are imputed righteous.
The term "in Adam" is used one single time in scripture (look it up and see for yourself) in 1 Cor 15:22. Here it says "in Adam all DIE". This is speaking of physical death only, as the 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians deals expressly with the future resurrection of our physical bodies.
We did inherit our body from Adam, but our soul and spirit came from God.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Note that our body inherited from Adam and Eve will return to the dust just as God said, but our spirit returns to God who gave it to us. God does not give us a sinful spirit, but men corrupt themselves through wilful sin.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
You do not get your spirit from Adam, God formed your spirit within you, and God does not make sinful spirits.
Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.
God also made our soul. God does not make sinful souls, we are made upright, but all men knowingly and willingly go astray when they are mature and understand good from evil.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
God made man upright, but all men go out in sin afterwards, just as the prodigal son did.
The exception would be babies and little children who die before they can sin. Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Paul must have forgotten that Jacob and Esau sinned in Adam's loins. :laugh:
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Thats the opposite of what the Bible says. He was 100% human, yet didnt sin.
he is also 100% God, and he was born without a sin nature, while ALL other humans except Him were!
Born in the likeness, NOT sameness of our flesh!
The onpy thing the Bible agrees with you on is Him being 100% God.
Yet another passage refuting total inability and augustinianism...
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
psalms109:31
Active Member
We are dead in sin, just as asleep, We need to be waken up by the words of Christ which is Spirit and life and run to Jesus to be alive in Him. His word is meaningless to us apart from Him, just as we are dead in sin run to Him.
The dead will face judgement, the death isn't what we think of it.
I know some pretty bright people who don't have a clue about death. We think of death as a body what we see not what we don't see what happens in the inside.
What you see is temporary what you don't is eternal.
Death eternal punishment and only Jesus can save you from it. He is our only sure foundation, the only way to the Father is through Jesus for Jesus and the Father are one.
The ones who listen and learn from the Father will come to Jesus and listen and learn from Jesus and you will find rest for your soul the part of you, you don't see in death. The Father and Jesus is one so listening and learning from Jesus is listening and learning from the Father.
Just because someone says they are a Calvinist doesn't mean he or she knows everything,they have more to learn from the Father. I am learning everyday and I do love to share what i am learning even if my for-fathers never learned it.
The dead will face judgement, the death isn't what we think of it.
I know some pretty bright people who don't have a clue about death. We think of death as a body what we see not what we don't see what happens in the inside.
What you see is temporary what you don't is eternal.
Death eternal punishment and only Jesus can save you from it. He is our only sure foundation, the only way to the Father is through Jesus for Jesus and the Father are one.
The ones who listen and learn from the Father will come to Jesus and listen and learn from Jesus and you will find rest for your soul the part of you, you don't see in death. The Father and Jesus is one so listening and learning from Jesus is listening and learning from the Father.
Just because someone says they are a Calvinist doesn't mean he or she knows everything,they have more to learn from the Father. I am learning everyday and I do love to share what i am learning even if my for-fathers never learned it.
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