T.u.l.i.p

[TomVols]

Winman wrote:

Yes, but election is based on foreknowledge.

People say God's election is based on his foreknowledge. So when does that foreknowledge of, say, Fred begin? When does God know whether or not Fred will repent and believe the Gospel? Before God creates Him or after (I assume you believe in God creating humans)?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Does not the scripture say also "you did not choose me,but I have chosen you,"? And those he foreknew.....that's not just knowledge ahead of time but intimacy. Example, Adam knew his wife.....not just knew about her. Another when Jesus proclaims "I never knew you".....that doesn't mean he didn't know about them but rather intimacy.

 

[Jim1999]

foreknowledge is an obvious attribute of God and not a causative factor of election.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

Winman wrote:
People say God's election is based on his foreknowledge. So when does that foreknowledge of, say, Fred begin? When does God know whether or not Fred will repent and believe the Gospel? Before God creates Him or after (I assume you believe in God creating humans)?

Since God exists yesterday, today and tomorrow all at the same time (I Am), foreknowledge is man's understanding of this infinite attribute. It could be said it's anthropomorphic in nature.

 

[Jedi Knight]

foreknowledge is an obvious attribute of God and not a causative factor of election.

Cheers,

Jim

Is foreknowledge the same as foreknew? They are different.

 

[Jim1999]

the words are essentialy the same, but I am sure anyone can pick it apart that foreknowlege means knowing before eternity past whilst foreknew means prior information being available. Show me the difference!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[psalms109:31]

Choose us

Does not the scripture say also "you did not choose me,but I have chosen you,"? And those he foreknew.....that's not just knowledge ahead of time but intimacy. Example, Adam knew his wife.....not just knew about her. Another when Jesus proclaims "I never knew you".....that doesn't mean he didn't know about them but rather intimacy.

Some will say He was talking to His disciple's. I know He choose them.

It is God who say's He will keep the meek and the humble who trust in the Lord, and hide the truth from the wise and learned. So He choose everyone. I think the vine and the branches explain's everything.

John 15
The Vine and the Branches
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[The Greek for prunes also means cleans. ] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Some will say He was talking to His disciple's. I know He choose them.

Well if you follow that logic then the disciple are the branches only too.
I am the vine YOU are the branches....who's the who? The disciples are but we apply them to all as well....thus true believers are chosen as well.

 

[psalms109:31]

Branches

Well if you follow that logic then the disciple are the branches only too.
I am the vine YOU are the branches....who's the who? The disciples are but we apply them to all as well....thus true believers are chosen as well.

I am not talking about just the branches, but everyone God has chosen.

It is God who say's He will keep the meek and the humble who trust in the Lord, and hide the truth from the wise and learned. So He chose everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

Since God is going to keep them, it is He the one chosing them.

 

[Winman]

Winman wrote:
People say God's election is based on his foreknowledge. So when does that foreknowledge of, say, Fred begin? When does God know whether or not Fred will repent and believe the Gospel? Before God creates Him or after (I assume you believe in God creating humans)?

People do not say that, God's Word says it. It says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

What part of that is difficult to understand?

 

[Jim1999]

People do not say that, God's Word says it. It says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

What part of that is difficult to understand?
----------------------------------------------

There is nothing there that negates the fact that God knows all throughout eternity. Obviously He has foreknowledge of an event, It does not say He created the incident because man forechose to accept or reject anything. If it did, we would have to include that man can direct the mind of God by his finite mind and manner. Lord help us!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Winman]

People do not say that, God's Word says it. It says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

What part of that is difficult to understand?
----------------------------------------------

There is nothing there that negates the fact that God knows all throughout eternity. Obviously He has foreknowledge of an event, It does not say He created the incident because man forechose to accept or reject anything. If it did, we would have to include that man can direct the mind of God by his finite mind and manner. Lord help us!

Cheers,

Jim

It simply means he has elected or chose those he saw would believe. That is his requirement or criteria to be elect. God made this determination to choose those who he knew would believe, so how does this rob God of his sovereignty? We had no say so in whom he would choose or what he would require.

 

[Rippon]

It simply means he has elected or chose those he saw would believe. That is his requirement or criteria to be elect. God made this determination to choose those who he knew would believe, so how does this rob God of his sovereignty? We had no say so in whom he would choose or what he would require.

Not a single person would believe of their own so-called free-will. Because of the depravity of human hearts the Lord determined that ones of His choosing He would intercede for. He didn't look down the corridors of time to find out how people would respond. No one would seek Him without His intervention. He placed His love upon these elect ones -- His forelove.

 

[TomVols]

People do not say that, God's Word says it. It says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

What part of that is difficult to understand?

I notice you didn't answer the question.


So what's your answer?

I'll repeat it:

Assuming you believe God personally creates individuals, assume God creates "Fred." Does God's foreknowledge of Fred's activities begin before God created Him or after?

 

[Jim1999]

It is part of the fallen nature of man that allows the arrogance that he can tell God when and what to do in anything.

The only place man has relatve freedom is under God's permissive will, an aspect of His absolute sovereignty. Here God says, thus far and no further!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Winman]

I notice you didn't answer the question.


So what's your answer?

I'll repeat it:

Assuming you believe God personally creates individuals, assume God creates "Fred." Does God's foreknowledge of Fred's activities begin before God created Him or after?

Gods' foreknowledge must begin before a person is created in the womb. God said he knew Jeremiah before he formed him in his mother's womb.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God knew Jeremiah would believe his Word, God knew Jeremiah would be a faithful servant. He knew everything that would take place in his life, and yours as well. He knew Jeremiah would be a prophet.

 

[Winman]

Not a single person would believe of their own so-called free-will. Because of the depravity of human hearts the Lord determined that ones of His choosing He would intercede for. He didn't look down the corridors of time to find out how people would respond. No one would seek Him without His intervention. He placed His love upon these elect ones -- His forelove.

Of course a person can believe of their free will. Moses told the children of Israel to choose God.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua also told Israel to make a choice.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I guess you believe you understand doctrine better than Moses and Joshua who were both prophets of God. They said that man could choose God, or choose against him.

I choose to believe Moses and Joshua, not Calvin and Augustine.

 

[jbh28]

It simply means he has elected or chose those he saw would believe. That is his requirement or criteria to be elect. God made this determination to choose those who he knew would believe, so how does this rob God of his sovereignty? We had no say so in whom he would choose or what he would require.

Could you tell use why it means that he looked and saw who would believe? Of course God knows who will and who will not believe. But could you explain how "according to foreknowledge" is teaching that God based it on looking ahead. "According to foreknowledge" of what? What does the passage teach?

Could you give one passage that says this is a requirement to be elect? Who made it this requirement and where does it say this in the Bible?

 

[Winman]

Could you tell use why it means that he looked and saw who would believe? Of course God knows who will and who will not believe. But could you explain how "according to foreknowledge" is teaching that God based it on looking ahead. "According to foreknowledge" of what? What does the passage teach?

Could you give one passage that says this is a requirement to be elect? Who made it this requirement and where does it say this in the Bible?

We don't need a direct statement, we have several examples in the scriptures. For instance, Jesus said he knew who he chose, speaking of his 12 disciples. He knew that 11 believed him and knew that Judas did not and would betray him.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

When Nathaniel came to Jesus he asked how Jesus knew him and Jesus replied he had seen Nathaniel under the tree even before he was "called"

John 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

The scriptures directly say Jesus knew from the begininning who would believe not, therefore he also knows who will believe. This verse shows God's foreknowledge includes who will believe him.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

God's foreknowledge of who will believe and who will not is shown several times in the scriptures. But you have to take off the Calvinist blinders to see it.

 

[jbh28]

We don't need a direct statement, we have several examples in the scriptures. For instance, Jesus said he knew who he chose, speaking of his 12 disciples. He knew that 11 believed him and knew that Judas did not and would betray him.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Where does it say that Jesus chose these men based on looking ahead?

When Nathaniel came to Jesus he asked how Jesus knew him and Jesus replied he had seen Nathaniel under the tree even before he was "called"

John 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

God has all knowledge. Nobody is denying that. There is absolutely nothing here that answers the questions I asked about the passage and your comments.

The scriptures directly say Jesus knew from the begininning who would believe not, therefore he also knows who will believe. This verse shows God's foreknowledge includes who will believe him.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

God's foreknowledge of who will believe and who will not is shown several times in the scriptures. But you have to take off the Calvinist blinders to see it.

I have never denied that Jesus knows who will believe and who won't believe. I don't know of anyone here that would deny that. So don't waste your time trying to show us that. We all know that.

The question is how do you say that "according to the foreknowledge" means in this passage that God based his election of his elect by looking ahead and seeing what would happen and then electing. Just because God knows all events doesn't mean that he based it on those events.

The other question was "Could you give one passage that says this is a requirement to be elect?"