T.u.l.i.p

[Iconoclast]

Pulling random verses from context and putting them all together is not a good tactic to use to support your view.

if anyone looks up the context, they can solve the puzzle.
From God,s point of view,no one comes unless He makes them willing,which answers her post. The verses used answer the question quite nicely.
The Holy Spirit had Paul use the same verses in Rom3...for the same reason....you do not think Paul used them out of context,do you webdog?

 

[Iconoclast]

I notice you didn't answer the question.


So what's your answer?

I'll repeat it:

Assuming you believe God personally creates individuals, assume God creates "Fred." Does God's foreknowledge of Fred's activities begin before God created Him or after?

the scripture is not talking of a god who has to look ahead to learn what will happen[therefore he would not be the true God.]

Foreknowledge...is of Fred....not freds activities.
It is for whom he did foreknow not for what he did foreknow
God knows the elect before they are even created,He does not have to wait and see what they do ,or what they choose. because He makes them willing psalm110:3
If you do not get this you will never understand these passages:type:

 

[Iconoclast]

Gods' foreknowledge must begin before a person is created in the womb. God said he knew Jeremiah before he formed him in his mother's womb.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God knew Jeremiah would believe his Word, God knew Jeremiah would be a faithful servant. He knew everything that would take place in his life, and yours as well. He knew Jeremiah would be a prophet.

God ordained Jeremiah to be a prophet,,,,not because Jeremiah was special, but because God ordained it...you are not reading the passage with understanding

 

[Iconoclast]

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

 

[psalms109:31]

Meek and humble

What God wants doesn't mean it will happen.

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

No meek and humble person who trust in the name of the Lord is going to center their conversation on what they did. They will center it on what God did.

God has made a promise that that those who put your trust in the Lord will not be disappointed. The will of God (not man) that believers the one's who trust in Jesus will be saved and those who don't will be condemned. That will happen.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I'm not going to start a tar baby discussion on this. Suffice to say, I side with Andrew Fuller and not John Gill.

 

[TomVols]

Iconclast, stay with me here


Winman, you said:

Gods' foreknowledge must begin before a person is created in the womb.

So God foreknows what Fred will do before He does it? Okay then, assume God foresees (which is what you imply, not foreknowledge) that Fred will not repent and believe the gospel. And God creates Him anyway. By your own definition and statement, God just created someone for damnation. In your own words, God passively-aggressively has exercised election prior to Fred's own actions.

 

[psalms109:31]

Forknowlege

There is one's who have been chosen for the purpose of Jesus Christ. To prepare the way, to make a path for Christ who will bring salvation to all men.

There is the elect and i do not find any reason to argue that. That does not mean that the one's who heard the Gospel of their salvation from them and believed wasn't included.

There is those who were elected before the foundation of the world and also those who wasn't but was included when they heard the gospel of their salvation having believed

Ephesians 1:13 (New International Version)

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:13 (New American Standard Bible)

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:13 (King James Version)

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:13 (New King James Version)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

People sometimes only see what it was like before the cross and have not seen all the Christ has done, open the door to all men.

One day they will see as Paul that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and try to convince people they are not lying.

 

[TomVols]

One day they will see as Paul that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

I've never met a Reformed person who didn't believe this.

 

[webdog]

Well if you follow that logic then the disciple are the branches only too.
I am the vine YOU are the branches....who's the who? The disciples are but we apply them to all as well....thus true believers are chosen as well.

That's faulty logic. He was addressing the 12 initially and then expanded on it.

 

[psalms109:31]

All men

I've never met a Reformed person who didn't believe this.

I am not talking about Pink version of all, but all men.

He started it and said we are to make peace with everyone, all is everyone not just the elect, but we know that the only one's who will come are the one's who listen and learn.

If He didn't mean all Paul would of not left it that open nor would Jesus when He said God loved the world.

 

[webdog]

if anyone looks up the context, they can solve the puzzle.
From God,s point of view,no one comes unless He makes them willing,which answers her post. The verses used answer the question quite nicely.
The Holy Spirit had Paul use the same verses in Rom3...for the same reason....you do not think Paul used them out of context,do you webdog?

I don't think Paul used them out of context, as if you go back to the OT passages he was quoting you will understand the true context. That rarely happens, and did not happen in this instance.

 

[webdog]

Iconclast, stay with me here


Winman, you said: So God foreknows what Fred will do before He does it? Okay then, assume God foresees (which is what you imply, not foreknowledge) that Fred will not repent and believe the gospel. And God creates Him anyway. By your own definition and statement, God just created someone for damnation. In your own words, God passively-aggressively has exercised election prior to Fred's own actions.

The same conundrum applies in your model as well as creating man and deliberately passing them over for salvation, failing to regenerate them so they can believe (while commanding them to do so and holding them accountable for not doing what He will not allow them to do) yet creating them anyway by default leads to double predestination and fatalism. Both the Arminian and Calvinist are wrong in this model.

 

[webdog]

I've never met a Reformed person who didn't believe this.

That's talking from both sides of your mouth if you believe God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and deliberately passes them over, hardens them, blinds them and fails to regenerate their spiritual corpses to do what He wants them to do from before the foundation of the world. That profile in a court of law (dont' forget justice is another attribute of God that is often overlooked) would be psychopathic. That's like a kidnapper saying about his bound victim "Oh, I wanted her to be free and live with her family"

 

[TomVols]

All people is all people, and I've never met a Reformed person who did not believe this. It's not talking out of both sides of your mouth. It's taking God at His Word. Is it talking out of both sides of your mouth when you say the Bible is human, yet divine? What about Jesus having a human nature yet being fully God? Of course not. Election and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. Sophistry says otherwise; God's Word is true.

Arminians are the ones who talk out of both sides of their mouths when they say God doesn't accept or reject anyone prior to their actions, yet God clearly creates people for damnation when he foresees their unbelief yet creates them anyway. They must either reject God's foresight, God's activity in creation, or accept that something other than foresight is at play in the salvation of people. Arminians talk of a God powerful enough to save, but so impotent that the choices of men and women render God's activity effective or not.

Kirk out...see you at the fantasy draft tomorrow night, all.

 

[RAdam]

I'm not going to start a tar baby discussion on this. Suffice to say, I side with Andrew Fuller and not John Gill.

I've never understood why people take Fuller over Gill. I've read both. Fuller has to be the most inconsistent theologian I've read.

 

[webdog]

All people is all people, and I've never met a Reformed person who did not believe this. It's not talking out of both sides of your mouth. It's taking God at His Word. Is it talking out of both sides of your mouth when you say the Bible is human, yet divine? What about Jesus having a human nature yet being fully God? Of course not. Election and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. Sophistry says otherwise; God's Word is true.

That's a non sequitur and doesn't deal with the issue. To say basically "I believe it because it's true" has no basis in truth. Sophistry and God's Word are not polar opposites...they coincide perfectly. If God's Word says to repent, He has enabled man to do just that or my claim stands.

Arminians are the ones who talk out of both sides of their mouths when they say God doesn't accept or reject anyone prior to their actions, yet God clearly creates people for damnation when he foresees their unbelief yet creates them anyway. They must either reject God's foresight, God's activity in creation, or accept that something other than foresight is at play in the salvation of people. Arminians talk of a God powerful enough to save, but so impotent that the choices of men and women render God's activity effective or not.

You are blinded to the fact your side does essentially the same thing using a different mechanic.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconclast, stay with me here


Winman, you said: So God foreknows what Fred will do before He does it? Okay then, assume God foresees (which is what you imply, not foreknowledge) that Fred will not repent and believe the gospel. And God creates Him anyway. By your own definition and statement, God just created someone for damnation. In your own words, God passively-aggressively has exercised election prior to Fred's own actions.

Tom V,
Hello Tom and thanks for your responses.:wavey: Let's see where we can agree,and lets see where we might view things differently.

[QUOTE[Winman, you said: So God foreknows what Fred will do before He does it
/QUOTE]
NO......God foreknows persons.....he knows them

what fred will do,is not the issue.This is a seperate issue.
God does know all thimgs yes.That is Gods omniscience.
read this description by AW Pink;
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_04.htm

ok,, now lets look at your other concern;
[QUOTEthat Fred will not repent and believe the gospel. And God creates Him anyway. By your own definition and statement, God just created someone for damnation. In your own words, God passively-aggressively has exercised election prior to Fred's own actions. ][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE It has often been pointed out in the past that every objection made against the eternal decrees of God applies with equal force against His eternal foreknowledge:

Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them; that is, He either is willing they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them. (Jonathan Edwards).

][/QUOTE]what do you think about this article?

then you said
By your own definition and statement, God just created someone for damnation.

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Then in the other post;

Quote:
One day they will see as Paul that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

I've never met a Reformed person who didn't believe this.
Today 08:21 AM

Yes,all believers believe this verse. I think it means several things.
All men,not the Jew only.All men rich or poor. I do not think God would be unhappy if all men wanted to believe.....but they do not. And they cannot overcome satanic blindness apart from God's mercy.2Cor 4

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In Ezekiel God tells us that he does not delight in the death of the wicked.
This is why Jesus weeps over Jerusalem Matt 23....because they"would not"

God never intended to save all,otherwise all would be saved .

 

[psalms109:31]

Wickedness

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

Ezekiel 3:

8 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

Ezekiel 28
A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel [a] ?
Is no secret hidden from you?
4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.
5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.
6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,
7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.
8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.
10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [Or lapis lazuli] turquoise and beryl. [The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.]
Your settings and mountings [The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

2 Peter 1:
Making One's Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:
Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[Jedi Knight]

That's faulty logic. He was addressing the 12 initially and then expanded on it.

Webdog your so kind.....Down boy! You side step and your logic goes with it. Like it or not believers are chosen just like the disciple......... maybe you should sheave your sword.