Believers are chosen to be conformed to Christ's image. You cannot state Jesus' addressing the 12 applies universally, that's bad hermeneutics.
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T.u.l.i.p
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Sorry,I think "your" hermeneutics here dose not work for this passage....Holy Spirit is our teacher too.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
May we consider the following equivalence relation.
Foreknowedge = Foreordination (This as best I can tell, is the position of the "reformed theology" adherent)
If we insist that this relation is true abosolutely, then there is no escaping the position that God not only "foreknew" that Adam would sin, but God then "foreordained" that he would do so. In my mind that puts God in the precarious position relative to the reality of sin in creation.
Those of us on the "non-reformed" side of the aisle, propose the following inequality.
Foreknowlege <> (not equal to) Foreordination
Rather God has complete awareness of all decisions, actions,events etc. associated with the entirety of creation. The "free decisions" of human beings determine the what foreknowledge God has of them rather than the reverse. The "foreknowlege" does not determine the free decisions, rather the free decisions determines the foreknowledge.
It is necessary to distguish between chronological priority and logical priority. God's foreknowledge is chronologically prior to the event that He foreknows, but the event is logically prior to the foreknowledge. The event does not occur because God foreknows it, rather, God foreknows it because it will happen. Because God foreknows an event will occur does not prejudice the fact of the event. God's foreknowledge may likened to an infallible barometer. As we know a barometer indicates the approaching weather, the barometer does not "determine" the weather, but rather the weather determines the barometer.
Now, before you spirtually castigate me, please keep in mind, I am NOT attempting to take away from God's Sovereignty in any way, if fact, I see Him as even MORE soveriegn, with the ability to allow "freedom" within creation and yet still Know precisely what the outcomes will be
Foreknowedge = Foreordination (This as best I can tell, is the position of the "reformed theology" adherent)
If we insist that this relation is true abosolutely, then there is no escaping the position that God not only "foreknew" that Adam would sin, but God then "foreordained" that he would do so. In my mind that puts God in the precarious position relative to the reality of sin in creation.
Those of us on the "non-reformed" side of the aisle, propose the following inequality.
Foreknowlege <> (not equal to) Foreordination
Rather God has complete awareness of all decisions, actions,events etc. associated with the entirety of creation. The "free decisions" of human beings determine the what foreknowledge God has of them rather than the reverse. The "foreknowlege" does not determine the free decisions, rather the free decisions determines the foreknowledge.
It is necessary to distguish between chronological priority and logical priority. God's foreknowledge is chronologically prior to the event that He foreknows, but the event is logically prior to the foreknowledge. The event does not occur because God foreknows it, rather, God foreknows it because it will happen. Because God foreknows an event will occur does not prejudice the fact of the event. God's foreknowledge may likened to an infallible barometer. As we know a barometer indicates the approaching weather, the barometer does not "determine" the weather, but rather the weather determines the barometer.
Now, before you spirtually castigate me, please keep in mind, I am NOT attempting to take away from God's Sovereignty in any way, if fact, I see Him as even MORE soveriegn, with the ability to allow "freedom" within creation and yet still Know precisely what the outcomes will be
Ok what is your take on "foreknew"?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Chronological prior knowledge of an event.
Are people events? Whom He foreknew?
Iconclast, stay with me here
Winman, you said: So God foreknows what Fred will do before He does it? Okay then, assume God foresees (which is what you imply, not foreknowledge) that Fred will not repent and believe the gospel. And God creates Him anyway. By your own definition and statement, God just created someone for damnation. In your own words, God passively-aggressively has exercised election prior to Fred's own actions.
No, God did not create him for the purpose of destroying him. God created him with free will, with the ability to make a choice, and God desires that all men be saved. If Fred goes to hell, it is his own decision and choice, God cannot be blamed for that.
But you ask, Why did God create Fred if he knew Fred would not believe on him?
This is going to sound very abstract, but God's foreknowledge does not determine the choice Fred will make. If Fred believes on Jesus, God knows that in his foreknowledge, if Fred rejects Jesus, God knows that in his foreknowledge.
But God's foreknowledge does not negate the fact that Fred has free will and can make his own choice. God has been perfectly just with Fred, he has given him the ability and opportunity to believe if he so chooses.
Foreknowledge is not determination. Jesus knew Judas would not believe and betray him, but God did not determine that Judas would not believe and betray him.
We know that God never causes unbelief, because the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin, and unbelief is sin. On the contrary, God has revealed his Word and sent his prophets throughout the ages and called and begged men to believe.
You are not describing the God of the bible in this post You can create your own god who does what you want him to do if you want to. In america people are free to worship any kind of god.
1] your god creates a man with a free will and full ability..not dead in adam
2]your god wishes or desires all men to be saved,but he cannot save anyone
3]your god does not send anyone to hell,they send themselves
4]your god determines nothing,he waits to look ahead and see what will happen, then he makes plan b according to what man wants to do.
5]your god somehow gives all men a fair chance to believe,even if they live and die without hearing about Jesus
6]your god could only be a victim of judas,he had to adjust his plan,it was not by determinate council that judas betrayed him.
7] the psalms that speak of judas betrayal,and the cross,were really neat coincidences as your god cannot determine anything
8] your god is not lord,he begs men to accept him
:BangHead: I now understand your posts. You are speaking of another god.
The God of the bible does exactly the opposite of what your god does.
Yes, and your god is a god who determines to create billions of people to torture and torment forever for his pleasure.
Your god does not give any man the opportunity to repent and be saved, and your god saves men who have no desire to be saved.
Your god is a tyrant who controls his creation like toys, like puppets on a string.
Your god makes Judas betray Jesus whether he wills to do so or not, then punishes Judas forever not for disobeying, but for performing your god's will.
Your god cannot adapt to any situation, he is less able then men who can adapt to changing situations.
Your god cannot see the future, he can only see what he has determined.
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God in His sovereignty created man with a free will and the ability to obey or disobey God's commands. Scripture is filled with numerous cases of men and women who were declared righteous who also obeyed and disobeyed God.
That makes man one who chooses to obey and disobey leaving God with the choice of His response.
To get a better understanding of election one must understand the God of Judaism and the OT within the context of Jewish culture and not American/Greek culture today.
Show us just one perfect elect of God who never disobeyed.
That makes man one who chooses to obey and disobey leaving God with the choice of His response.
To get a better understanding of election one must understand the God of Judaism and the OT within the context of Jewish culture and not American/Greek culture today.
Show us just one perfect elect of God who never disobeyed.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
Speaking in terms of mathematics, yes, they could be defined as such. In mathematical terminology events make up a sample space.
This was well written and how I believe also. Calvinists limit God. The Marines have a famous saying, "Adapt and overcome" , but Calvinists do not believe God has the ability to adapt and overcome. Their idea of God is that he is rigidly locked into whatever he determines. They have difficulty explaining the many times God changed his mind or repented in the Bible, and say that God determined to repent or would not have been able to. That is downright comical.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Winman, I do think that there are times in the history of creation, that God decides to specifically and "deterministically" cause things to occur. These evernts, be they "events of nature", or empires or specific individuals at specific points in history, are the exception rather than the norm. Such a discussion invariably can turn to attempting to define precisely what we mean about the "will of God". :thumbs:
BTW: I know that I am stating the obvious when I say, I am not, nor do I claim to be a theologian. Just a simple fallible man attempting to understand, as much as my finite brain is able, the various revelations that God has granted us, His creation, His word, His image in us and in the life and example of Yeshua.
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But foreknew describes intimacy.
quantumfaith
Active Member
OK, an intimate prior chronological knowledge of "events". :thumbs:
lol If you say so.:sleeping_2:
quantumfaith
Active Member
JK: Actually I am not trying to be a "smart ^%$^" Just trying to the best I can to defend and explain how I understand God through the myriad of ways He has revealed Himself to us. To be true and intellectually honest, none of us Really Know the absolute truth, but thankfully, our position on these theological views, should have no bearing on the REAL important stuff, like professing the name of Christ and recognizing our own sinfulness and thus the need for God and His salvation.
I agree, we know some things are determined for an exact day and hour. At the same time, I believe God allows man a certain degree of freedom.
One of the best analogies I have heard is a cruise ship. On a cruise ship all the passengers are doing their own thing, whatever they choose to do. At the same time, the captain is taking the ship to it's decreed destination, the passengers being carried along.
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