T.V. Commercial: United Church of Christ

I challenge someone to show me in the Bible where the standard practice of evangelism was bringing the lost sinners into the church.

This ad is reflective of what many churches do. They bring the lost world in like a magnet instead of going out to the lost world, winning them to Christ, and then bringing Christians into the church.

And we wonder why our churches are liberal and worldly--they are filled with lost sinners.

 

Good point, csmith.

Gold Dragon, you seem very willing to ignore what is implied by the commercial and unrealistically focus on a rigid interpretation of only exactly what was said.

I wonder if you would do the same with a message that contained thinly veiled racism?

 

There isn't any. Just like there isn't any biblical passage where the standard practice of Communion was grape juice, a modern invention.

Just as Christ was a magnet for the lost. God bless those churches.

How do you know they don't do that as well.

So the church has no place for seekers. I see.

Are you suggesting that there are seekers in leadership positions of liberal churches? I find it wonderful that some churches are attracting the lost so that they can be found. I hope they are also teaching right doctrine.

[ March 23, 2005, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Gold Dragon ]

 

That implied message may or may not have been there. I am not ignoring it but recognizing it as a possiblity but one that is poorly supported by the images and words presented. There is no mention of sin in the commercial or what constitutes as sin.

I think an equivalent racist ad would be one where the only hint of racism was that the protagonist was white and the antagonist was coloured. It may have implied racism, it may not have.

 

Gold Dragon:

If the standard isn't in the Bible, then don't do it. It is that simple. At my church, we don't have ads and programs to draw the lost. The church is NOT for the lost like many have assumed. The church is for the saved.

Many church members never reach even one lost person. I know that many of them feel that their church is evangelizing from within and therefore doing it's duty.

No, I don't believe that a church is for seekers. I believe that Christ is for seekers. Most churches today are no more than organizations and businesses trying to get as many people to join as possible and then attempting to give them the gospel when they get there. There is absolutely no Biblical precendent for this. You can use modern logic all you want, but that doesn't change the Scriptures.

I don't care how "wonderful" you think today's "seeking" is. The truth is, there is a biblical doctrine of church purity that must be balanced with the great commission.

 

I understand your dislike for those who treat drawing people to their church as a for-profit, consumer enterprise.

I'm curious, what does your church do when a non-Christian visits? Many non-Christians come to our church because their friend or family member is being baptised and they have been invited to witness this event. Some end up staying and eventually give their life to Christ too. How does your church approach those folks?

 

That implied message may or may not have been there. I am not ignoring it but recognizing it as a possiblity but one that is poorly supported by the images and words presented. There is no mention of sin in the commercial or what constitutes as sin.

I think an equivalent racist ad would be one where the only hint of racism was that the protagonist was white and the antagonist was coloured. It may have implied racism, it may not have. </font>[/QUOTE]From the original post on this thread:

That's the commercial to which I was referring. You apparently are thinking of a different one.

 

Same one. Where in that does it say anything about whether homosexual sex is a sin or not? It is about turning people away based on appearance. If your church doesn't do that, then you shouldn't be offended by it.

As for the last scene with two women arms over each other, you can imply they are saying that homosexual sex is not a sin and I wouldn't be surprised if that was intended or that many UCC members hold that position that I believe to be incorrect. But in itself, that image does not say that. We have no idea what the relationship is between those two women, whether they share a bedroom, what they do or do not do in it and what the UCC's position is about it.

 

Gold Dragon:

From my viewpoint the issue is about an ad that is encouraging people to come to church "as is". That is unbiblical. If we have a someone come to our church as you suggested, we don't turn them away and we don't despise them. We attempt to show them the gospel asap. Those individuals, however, are not a target audience for church attendance. They are a target audience for the gospel outside of the fellowship of the church.

 

I feel that this position adds extra "requirements" that scripture does not speak of.

I understand that these "requirements" are part of pursuing the noble goal of holiness that Christ wants for us and I share that pursuit. But we must always be careful that we are not falling into the same trap of righteousness as the Pharisees.

That is great. And if they don't accept right away, I'm sure you are patient with them as they continue to seek.

That's fine, they don't have to be the target audience, just a welcomed one.

They should definitely also be recipients of the gospel message outside of the building we call church.

 

Same one. Where in that does it say anything about whether homosexual sex is a sin or not? It is about turning people away based on appearance. If your church doesn't do that, then you shouldn't be offended by it.

As for the last scene with two women arms over each other, you can imply they are saying that homosexual sex is not a sin and I wouldn't be surprised if that was intended or that many UCC members hold that position that I believe to be incorrect. But in itself, that image does not say that. We have no idea what the relationship is between those two women, whether they share a bedroom, what they do or do not do in it and what the UCC's position is about it. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, now I'm understanding why we're going around and around on this. I can see where you could stretch it to say that the commercial did not imply that homosexuality is not a sin, although the images would make that doubtful.

But, what I was talking about was that the commercial implied that the UCC is somehow unique in that it does not turn homosexuals away from their services. The concept of "bouncer types" turning people away is ridiculous, and the vast majority of churches of ANY denomination would not disallow homosexuals from visiting their church.

I think maybe we've found the Pharisees...right there in the UCC!

 

Yep, now THERE'S an example of a Pharisee...someone who would have blatant disregard for the teaching of the Bible, encourage folks to continue in a dangerous and sinful lifestyle, and the throw stones at others who they falsely imagine would mistreat visitors to their churches.

 

I hope that is the case. If your church is in what you percieve to be the "vast majority" that doesn't turn away homosexuals or "different" folks, then don't feel offended, it isn't talking about you.

Another implication that you read into the commercial that isn't really there. It didn't say that they are the only ones not like the church hyperbolically portrayed in the first half of the ad. Just that they aren't like the church portrayed. I'm sure they recognize that not all churches are like that.

 

But, if it's correct that the vast majority of churches don't then the commercial is disingenuous and misleading.

It would be like a car commercial touting a car that doesn't catch fire at speeds over 45 mph. The implication would be that others typically do. That would be misleading.

 

I believe many churches are like the one hyperbolically portrayed, not literally with bouncers but not far off. If there weren't churches like that and people didn't have experiences like that (which would be wonderful), then nobody would relate to the ad.

The UCC is part of the World Council of Churches so I don't think they are out to defame all other denominations.

 

I also think we should welcome people. Love the people--not the sin.

But there was a So Baptist pastor in my southern town that baptized two gay men in his church. I don't know if they were a couple or not.

Fornuately the association didn't waste any time kicking that church out of the association.

It was a shame, too b/c that church has been in our town for over 50 years.

 

I agree. They are probably just trying to defame those who take the Bible seriously.

 

I agree. They are probably just trying to defame those who take the Bible seriously. </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't realize turning away "different" looking folks or "not up to par" folks was requisite of those who "took the Bible seriously".

I would say those are folks who don't take the bible seriously enough. The ones who question why Jesus' ate with prostitutes and tax collectors. The ones that don't heed Jesus' warnings of self-righteous religious folks. The ones that don't heed Jesus' words about letting those who seek him to approach him and find him. The ones that don't understand that Jesus came to heal the sick, not the healthy.

 

We're going in circles again.

My point is that there are very few churches guilty of this, and the implication of the ad was that it is typical.

It would be like a Phaisee standing on a platform on a street corner and shouting over and over "I'm not an axe murderer".

So what? Big deal! So, the Pharisees in the UCC don't throw out visitors who are homosexual. What do they want, a free bicycle?

 

That is something you read into the ad. The ad did not comment on how common that is.

If your church is not like that, than I don't understand why you find it offensive. You should be joining them in rebuke of those "rare" churches, which I think are much more common than you suggest. Yes, the UCC has other things they need rebuke for too. Every denomination has their problems, even Baptists.

And nobody would care if axe murderers were not a part of society. Just like nobody would care if the view of the church portrayed in the ad did not exist. But unfortunately that view does exist and is caused by how some churches treat "different" folks.

We should be joining the UCC in saying "Amen! We are not like those unwelcoming churches either." Even if we disagree with some of them on other things.

Nothing, just to let people know that is who they are. But I'm sure they would accept bicycles.