Take This Christian Music Test

[rbell]

OK...another course here:

So, if a song does not specifically mention God...is it evil? Gee whiz, do we all get shuffled off to the pit for singing "London Bridge" or "Happy Birthday?"

So what if an artist sings a song on an album that celebrates love...and does not make it sexual, degrading, or wrong...but instead extols the virtue of a healthy, proper love relationship...a clean "love song?" (remember, "Song of Solomon" is in your Bible).

If I have a CD, with ten songs, and one or two is a clean "love song," is that not acceptable?

According to your reasoning, no.

I think you're simply a bit frustrated. You started this thread, excited about a website which backed up your preferences. You ran into people who know their music history, music theory, theology, Hebrew, Greek, current events, and logic.

In short, you've run into some folks whose ministries God is blessing immensely, using the very forms of music you don't like(along with traditional and ancient musical forms). These same people have done their homework, and have answers for your valid questions, and rebuttals for your less substantive arguments. These folks certainly don't hate you, and we don't hate the music that you approve.

But as for me...my position is informed, my conscience is clear, and my ministry is sound.

 

[gtbuzzarp]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
The fact is, the styles of music that are being played by the various CCM artists were all played as worldly Rock n' Roll before they even came into the church.

And many hymns are sung to tunes that were played as worldy folks songs, etc. How is that any different?

The religious songs that the Charter Colonists “sung, or would, or could, or should have sung” are represented in oral tradition today 1) by some texts and tunes of carols and hymns which had their origin in the Middle Ages, 2) by hymns connected with the Reformation, and 3) by hymns growing out of the Methodist and other religious movements of the first half of the eighteenth century. The history of the first three is pretty well indicated by various folksong collections made in America and Britain.

There was, however, a development in church and revival singing (camp meetings, etc.) which was not generally known until George Pullen Jackson, of Vanderbilt University, began publication of his researches with White and Negro Spirituals in the Southern Uplands (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1933). This work he continued in several other substantial volumes with texts and music and extensive historical and critical notes. One significant fact demonstrated by Professor Jackson was that the hymn writers of the first half of the nineteenth century, unwilling for “the devil to have all the pretty tunes,” turned to folk tunes— the old ballad and dance tunes, such as “Barbara Allan”— for their hymns. Thus it is that many of the hymns sung in North Carolina churches today go back, sometimes in patterns and poetry, but often in music, to songs known to the Carolina Charter Colonists, 1663-1763.

LINK

 

[Hope of Glory]

I heard a christian book store worker once say, since he had to play different styles of music in the store, he would have people come in and say "I thought you only played Christian music in here"

I was in a Christian book store up in Anchorage, and a fellow came in and got all huffy because there were more translations than just the KJV, and he said something to the effect, "I thought you only sold real Bibles here". Opinions aren't the same as facts.

Why do you assume that those who disagree with you and see the lies and distortions have not read the links? Many of these urban myths on that site have been around since I was a kid, and many of these people are obviously satanic. But, just because these few are why do you assume that all are?

The same holds true for CCM. Even though it’s not my cup of tea, why judge it all based on a few bad apples? Otherwise, we need to toss out all the hymnals, based on the filthy hymns album.

If an argument is just, there is no need to stoop to fabrication; just present the truth!

for they have served the world and it's standards,

Or they have simply made a misstep, as we all do.

Godly music is comprised of MELODY having the lead role not the beat,

That sounds like the same argument made in a video series by some nutcase named Frank Garlock. He even cited "scientific" studies stating that rhythm is bad for the body. (The quotation marks are there because I checked his reference, and it leaves a bit to be desired.)

 

[Frenchy]

That list was list from 2000 top CCM and most are still around i checked. it doesn't matter if I gave you a complete updated list they will all be the same they have been the same for 20 years now that i know of. if anything they will be worse, nothing gets better when it comes to Satans schemes they just get worse. and people just get more and more desentitized.

Funny thing is i can assume none of you that are for CCM has looked up any of these artist lyrics and seen how they can easily go on the secular radio stations and no one would know the difference. not only that you all throw your opinions around instead of scripture and facts. and i just love the personal attacks on me such as how many people do i witness to, i witness to as many as God would have me to. i am not into the numbers game i am into glorifying God and the edification of his saints and seeing people saved and growing. i guarentee that isn't the same goal as most of these artist.

 

[Frenchy]

SCRIPTURES to ponder over on principles

Music That Pleases The Lord

1Cor 5:13, says, "It came to pass as the trumpets and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in PRAISING and THANKING the Lord. When they lifted up their voices with the trumpets and instruments of music PRAISING the Lord for he is good."

Also most of Psalms; Psalms 81:1, Psalms 95:1, Nu 21:17, 2 Cron 20:22, Ezr 3:11, Mark 14:26, Acts 16:25, Rev 5:9 and so many more.

Principles Of Peace What Is Best For Us

Again 1 Cor 14:33, "for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all the churches of the saints" Rock and rap and punk music do not promote peace.
Gal 5:22-23 "The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, PEACE, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and SELF CONTROL"

Phil 4:8, "And the PEACE of God which passes all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds throguh Jesus Christ. Finally bretheren whatever is true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, if there be any virtue and praise, THINK ON THESE THINGS"

1Cor 6:12, "All things are lawful unto me, but NOT ALL THINGS ARE EXPEDIENT (RIGHT), All things are lawful for me, but I will NOT BE BROUGHT UNDER THE POWER OF ANT" 1Cor 10:23 same.

Rom 14:19, "Let us therefore follow after these things which make for PEACE, and things where with one may EDIFY another"

1Thess 5:21, "PROVE ALL things hold fast to that which is good"

Principles Dealing With Our Flesh and Our Witness

Rom 13:14, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make NO provision for the FLESH, to fulfill the LUST thereof"

Gal 5:16, "This I say then, walk in the spirit, and ye shall NOT fulfill the LUST of the FLESH"

2Tim 2:22, "Flee also youthful lust but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call the Lord out of a pure heart"

Titus 2:12, "Teaching us that denying ungodliness and WORLDLY lust, we should live soberly (self controled) righteously (seperate set apart) and Godly, in this present WORLD"

1Peter 2:11, "Dearly beloved I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims ABSTAIN FROM FLESHY LUST, which war against the soul" 1Peter 1:14 and 2 Peter 1.....Much of the music today feeds the flesh and not the spirit.

Remember Jesus said "Be IN the world but not OF the world"

Principles Of A Changed Life

2Cor 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a NEW creatrue OLD things have PASSED away, behold all things becoming NEW" which should include our taste for worldly music styles and words.

Romans 1:12, "I beseech you therefore brethern by the mercies of God that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, HOLY (set apart) acceptable unto God , which is your reasonable service.
And be NOT CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD, but be you transformed by the RENEWING of your mind, that you may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God" and Romans 8:5-6

2Cor 6:16, "And what agreement hath the TEMPLE of God with IDOLS for you are the temple of the living God"

1Peter 1:14-16, "As obedient children, do NOT FASHION your selves to the FORMER lusts in your ignorance. But as he which hath called you is HOLY (set apart) so shall you be Holy IN ALL MANNER AND CONVERSATION"

LUST means to have a OVERWHELMING desire for some thing whether that be sexual, power, food, music, entertainment etc.

 

[Frenchy]

Hope Of Glory have to disagree with you on the effects of the beat...even scientist disagree with you! check out these studies that MUSIC ISN'T NEUTRAL.

http://www.av1611.org/neutral.html

http://www.f-b-f.org/WebMan/Article.asp?ID=3902&Count=true

 

[rbell]

Frenchy...

You did good on putting scriptures to your words. Next time, let the scriptures speak for themselves, instead of adding to the scriptural quotes.

Now, once again...AV1611 has been discredited in this thread. Using it to "prove" your points is worthless. They lie, distort, and sprinkle a bit of truth in a bunch of garbage.

I find it interesting that you prove my point for me...who is the first person quoted in your second article? Plato. Are you sure you want your opinion to be informed by a pagan Greek philosopher?

Chew on this...450 years ago, these were our "worship rules:"

(I) That psalms of tribulation be sung with a low voice and in long measure :

(II) That psalms of Thanksgiving be sung with an indifferent voice, neither too loud nor too slow :

(III) That psalms of rejoicing be sung with a loud voice, and in a swift and jocund measure.

Harmony was discouraged. Instruments of all kinds were discouraged. One of the hated pieces of the time? The tune "OLD ONE HUNDRED." You might know it better if you were to sing it...the Doxology.
One Source

Imagine...one of our most scripturally-sound and best-loved hymns...loathed because of it's musical form (not Psalm-metered) and style (harmony, which was "sinful" in the 16th century).

In fact, one of our early Baptist Churches, FBC Newport, RI, disallowed ALL singing for its first one hundred years.

You see, Frenchy, legalism is not new. These issues have cropped up before, and they were settled. This particular controversy will be dead in 50 years. We'll all reminisce about the "Good old Gaither songs," "God of Wonders" will be in our canon of hymnody, and many will rail against whatever genre of music arrives in 2056.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Yeah Frenchy...those are not science sites, but the same sites you listed before. The first one has this little jewel:

Rock music can literally cook an egg!

Drs. Earl W. Flosdorf and Leslie A. Chambers found in a series of experiments that shrill sounds projected into a liquid media coagulated proteins. A recent teenage fad was that of taking soft eggs to rock concerts and placing them at the foot of the stage. Midway through the concert the eggs could be eaten hard-boiled as a result of the music. Amazingly few rock fans wondered what that same music might do to their bodies. (Larson, Bob The Day Music Died, p.116)

So much for their credibility. Cook an egg? Get real here. And it is from that paragon of virtue himself, Bob Larson. Read more about him at http://www.ondoctrine.com/10larson.htm

 

[Magnetic Poles]

BTW Frenchy, I am still waiting on that evidence that listening to CCM will make me have promiscuous sex and take drugs. I don't mean in a link to your only 2 wacky sites either.

 

[rbell]

Hey...I haven't heard the "egg" lie since I went to a "backmasking seminar" in 8th grade. I remember them playing a Captain & Tenille album backwards...according to them, it said, "Drugs are Jesus try them" (you know, Tenille sounds goofy backwards too!)

I never heard that like they said I should (though at the time I took it for face value)...it wasn't later until I wondered: If you can't decipher the sentence structure forward, what kind of cranial behemoth must you be to get it backwards?

 

[Frenchy]

Yes Rbell John Macarthur was wrong when he talked about using biblical principles for gray area's this exactly what he meant and used the some of the same verses, none of which was taken out of context.

Just to show you you are wrong forget the links all together and just do a search on the names listed and see if most of them can easily be put on the secular radio station based on their LYRICS alone. you will find it wouldn't be to hard.

I never said all CCM is bad I have my favorites based on the guidelines presented. But you will see majority if not all their lyrics are DOCTRINALLY sound and edifying, and you can actually HEAR the words even though the music has a beat.

I am not being legalisitc on this issue as some would like to think, I am showing how MUCH of what is out there is far from being christian. I know I hear it in youth groups all the time. And what other kids want to give to my kids.

I watched a documentary on discovery channel many years back on music and how the beat was influencial. it showed how parrots would pull their feathers OUT when listening to ROCK MUSIC and how African tribes used the beat of a drum to bring up EVIL spirits and all the use of music in their vodoo culture and many other aspects of music and it's affects.

getting rid of a link doesn't mean the mod is right, just opinionated. I have had many who have asked for the original link and many who agree. I know whats right, cause i see the effects. and what God's word has to say about it.


Just because you don't want to believe it is so doesn't make YOU right!

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well, well, well.....

Eight pages to get the idea that SOME folks think:

Artists who use the word Christian to describe their music shouldn't attempt to make money off their product. Hmmmm..... God says what?

For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. Is it for the oxen that God careth, or saith he it assuredly for our sake? Yea, for our sake it was written: because he that ploweth ought to plow in hope, and he that thresheth, [to thresh] in hope of partaking. I Cor 9:9-10


That if Christian music might be played on a secular station that God can't possibly be pleased.....but God says:

Mr 2:15 And it came to pass, that he was sitting at meat in his house, and many publicans and sinners sat down with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
Mr 2:16 And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with the sinners and publicans, said unto his disciples, [How is it] that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Mr 2:17 And when Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.


And lastly, if the lyrics don't specifically mention God, then they can't possibly point people in His direction......but God says:

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:


Have I missed anything? If I have, I'm sure God has something to say about that as well.

Folks, let's not limit our Creator to our opinions and preferences. Let's not presume we know the heart of someone because they are in the public eye. And if we have a problem with a product, let's substantiate it with more than innuendo and legalism. My opinion, I'm sticking with what God says and what He leads me to do based on my own life experiences. But I'm not about to tell the another person that they can/can't do/enjoy/not do ANYTHING not spelled out in God's word, just because I feel like I should/should not do such.

 

[Frenchy]

Now if that isn't distorting scripture I don't know what is?

 

[rbell]

Yes, and the pagan Celts played pennywhistles. So they are also evil.

Frenchy, I don't want to believe urban legend and fabrications. You are losing the information battle here. I've posted reputable sites, and you counter with AV1611.org.

Your best post? Your scripture list. Even if I disagree...I feel that I have more common ground with someone who is genuinely trying to have a scriptural viewpoint (as I believe you are). My issue is that you have used those scriptures to speak to a subject to which scripture is silent.

I would much rather deal in that realm than put out the brushfires of a slanderous website that engages in libelous content, discredited science, and logical fallacies.

You just mentioned something as an aside that I deem VERY important...one of your concerns is because of your role as a mother.

What I'm about to say may surprise you. IF your child came to me and said, "Mom's going all legalistic on this music and won't let me listen to CCM," I would respond, after giving relational tips and ideas for better communication, that ultimately parents have the say, and they must obey.

I might come to you later to discuss it (privately, without your kid's knowing I did), but if you held your ground, then I would support you.

Now...I might not change my entire program for my 150+ kids based on this...but I WOULD find ways for your child to serve and minister in other ways. At the same time, in smaller settings, (SS, family group, etc.) I would let the facilitator/group leader know and adjustments would be made.

I have done this twice in my six years here.

There. Common ground. We both care about the kid. Amazing huh? (edit: not amazing that we care...but amazing that commmon ground can be found. gotta work on my wording)

 

[rbell]

Originally posted by Frenchy:
Now if that isn't distorting scripture I don't know what is?

Actually, menageriekeeper does not violate the exegetical rule of context here. Methinks you're mistaken on this point.

 

[Frenchy]

You are right I would NEVER tell someone what they can or cannot listen too either. I said that before according to Romans 14 in several posts.

BUT I do expect the CHURCH and the CHURCH YOUTH GROUP to hold to higher standards than what we had experenced in a few churches. playing music labled "Christian" but yet was FAR from it. Do a search on Rez Band (thats a group) and tell me if that crap and stuff like it is fit and edifying for a youth group that MY children are in. NO IT ISN"T and the pastor even agreed with us on the matter but didn't have the whatever to do anything about it.

This is my beef not what one listens to in his own home but what is played in the CHURCH and what is handed to my KIDS at their Christian school.

With so many seeker services churches springing up this is the TOOL they use to draw the unsaved kids in with, music that sounds just LIKE THEIRS.

see where the problem is and why it is so prevelant and taking off more and more?
SEEKER MOVEMENT!!!

[ May 01, 2006, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Frenchy ]

 

[Frenchy]

Rbell you must have missed all my other scriptures on this subject in previous post go back and find them and read them i even have more than this and what i wrote before is just a sample of my 8 page personal study on the subject which took over a month to do.

 

[Frenchy]

I am not against all CCM music. I have hundreds of Christian music ranging from country, hymnals, praise, gospel, easy listening, abstract, jazz etc. since i have so much and been a christian for over 20 years i am not up on the new stuff. but let me give an example of a few artist i think are sound who have a beat.

Kathy Troccoli
Mike Menard
Andy Alan
Larnelle Harris
Ray Boltz
Sandi Patty
Ivan Parker
Contentials

To name a few

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Frenchy:
[SNIPPED. Offensive link with graphics/pictures of non-Christian. We don't need or want this type of stuff on our website]

Take the Contemporary Christian Music Test
Click Here

http://www.av1611.org/crktstin.html

You may be suprised at the results

This may be the dumbest thing I've ever seen (and that's saying a lot for av1611.org).

Not once do they try to explain what's wrong with the artist or song. They just try to condemn the Christian artist by associating them with a mainstream artist whom they have nothing to do with.

In many cases, the "test" gets it's facts wrong in implying that the Christian band covered the mainstream band.

In the case of "God Gave Rock and Roll to You", "Jesus is Just Alright", "Nobody's Fault but Mine", it's simply a case of each band covering an already popular song, independently of one another. There is nothing wrong with that.

Rather than simply saying that a song is bad or an artist is bad because of something another, unrelated artist did, explain what is wrong with that song or artist.

In the case of "Big Yellow Taxi", they resprt to flat out dihonesty by claiming that the lyrics are "New Age". But in the lyrics they cite, clearly, there's nothing "New Age" about it.

We've debated and debunked these idiots' arguments many times in the music forums.

Now Playing:Taj Mahal - "Senior Blues"

 

[rbell]

Frenchy's scripture quotes:
Music That Pleases The Lord (My responses in italics)

1Cor 5:13, says, "It came to pass as the trumpets and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in PRAISING and THANKING the Lord. When they lifted up their voices with the trumpets and instruments of music PRAISING the Lord for he is good."

Also most of Psalms; Psalms 81:1, Psalms 95:1, Nu 21:17, 2 Cron 20:22, Ezr 3:11, Mark 14:26, Acts 16:25, Rev 5:9 and so many more.

No mention of genre. Worship music should be God-centered. Fine. One question...what scripture did you mean when you put "1 Cor. 5:13"? That's not what it says. I think you made a typo.


Again 1 Cor 14:33, "for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all the churches of the saints" Rock and rap and punk music do not promote peace.
Gal 5:22-23 "The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, PEACE, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and SELF CONTROL"

1 Cor 14 has to do with tongues and interpretation. This is out of context. The "fruits" passage? Absolutely. I teach all of our worship leaders...it ain't about YOU. Good lesson for a hymn-meister or cutting edge rocker.

Phil 4:8, "And the PEACE of God which passes all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds throguh Jesus Christ. Finally bretheren whatever is true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, if there be any virtue and praise, THINK ON THESE THINGS"
Absolutely! And this passage proves that a song set to a good rhythm is evil...how?

Much more to post, but gotta run...back later.