Take up his cross...

[John of Japan]

John of Japan, At first, the rich ruler heard rumours spread on Jesus, he thought Jesus is a good master like as leader. Does he actually realize that Jesus is Messiah? I do not think so. But, the rich ruler really want to know how can he go enter eternal life. He was not asking for 'rewards', he asked about how to have eternal life. Christ already knew before the rich man asking him. First, when the rich man asked him, what things he shall to do to have eternal life. Christ cannot ignore or avoid man's question. Christ have to answer his question. He told him, if he wants to have eternal life, then keep the commandments. THEN, the rich man saying to him, he did kept them in his youth life, but what missing thing that he needs for eternal life. Christ told him, to sell his things and give them to the poor, and will receive blessings in heaven and come to follow him. The rich man became bitter, and walked away. Christ didn't saying to him, "Just believe in me, and you will have eternal life.", He was testing upon rich man, to see if he have the true faith. Christ was NOT discuss about "good work" for eternal life. Christ was challenged rich man on faith. Christ was emphasis on faith, not "good works." The rich man became bitter what Christ saying to him. He was worry over his earthly things what he possesses, he doesn't want to lost his things and also, his reputation too. That why he have no faith in Christ. He went away, and is now in hell, because of not faith and not believe on Christ. In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

I discussed this in posts #89 and 91, which have not been answered yet. So I see no need to further discuss it.

 

[John of Japan]

You said this in an earlier post:

The truth? No, I don't believe Matt. 25 is speaking of the bema judgment.

Now you say:

I believe there is the Bema seat judgement for Christians (only for rewards, not for punishment), probably in Heaven during the tribulation but I'm not sure; the judgement of nations at the end of the tribulation period; the Great White Throne judgement at the end of time.


If the Bema seat judgment is not described in MA 25 where is it addressed in the Bible?

2 Cor. 5 is where the term bema comes from, where it is the Greek word for "seat" in "judgment seat of Christ."

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan,You saying, the word, 'quick' in 1611 A.V. is "living". I do have 1611 A.V. Bible with me in my library. I did check on Acts 10:42 for 'quick'. In 1611 A.V. says, "quicke". Also, I check in 2 Tim. 4:1 for 'quick' in 1611 A.V. It says, "quicke". I ask you where you find word, "living" in 1611 A.V. which relate with "quick". By the way, you didn't answer my question- Who is the "quick"? Who is "dead"? I am waiting on you to answer my question.

I said clearly that discussing the judgments is not what this thread is about and I didn't want to discuss it. Also, when prophecy has been discussed on the Baptist Board, often it turns nasty, and dispensationalism in particular is scorned and insulted. (I don't say you would be nasty.) My life is stressful enough without adding more stress in that way.

However, you have asked nicely, so I'll clarify this point. When you study how English was used in 1611 England, you learn that the word "quick" meant "living" to 17th century Britishers. So for example, in Heb. 4:12, when it says the Word of God is "quick," it doesn't mean the Bible is fast but that it is alive. Furthermore, in the 4 places "quick" occurs in the KJV, it is always translated from the Greek word zao, which means "to live."

The KJV is almost 400 years old. It is a big mistake to read back our 21st century meanings into the 1611 KJV. Another example is "mansions" in John 14:2. Even nowadays, "mansion" in British English does not mean a big, luxurious house, but it means an apartment. The Japanese language has mansion as a loan word, pronounced "manshon," and here it means an upscale apartment.

Concerning your question about the quick and the dead, I'll answer it in more detail, and then hope you will respect my wish not to discuss prophecy. The phrase occurs three times, and as I have said it should be interpreted "living and dead."

The defining time is in 2 Tim. 4:1. There it is clear that this will occur "at His appearing and kingdom." Thus I believe that this will occur at the Second coming of Christ. The living are those who have survived the tribulation period in my theology. The dead are those who died during the tribulaton period.

Not long time ago, I did read your posts, that Late Dr. John R. Rice was your grandfather. I do have Dr. Rice books with me. I love Sword of the Lord. I still admire your grandfather. Not because of his beliefs, because of his godly life, and a great prayer. I do respect your grandfather so well. Dispensationalism was developing when your grandfather was a young man. C.I. Scofield developed that doctrine while your grandfather was in college during in year around 1910's. Early Church taught only one future coming, one judgment day, God's one family. I believe both judgment seat of Christ and great white throne are same judgment day. Because, in Revelation 11:15-19 is clearly telling us at seventh trumpet(last trump of 1 Cor. 15:51) shall be sounded, then all dead shall be resurrect, both shall be judged and give rewards. This very clear picture of one future coming, one future judgment day. Also, in Rev. 22:12, Christ said, "Abd behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give man according as his work shall be." This is clearly telling us, at second coming, Christ shall bring rewards with him to give individual of their works. This is only one future coming, one judgment day. I do not believe the Bible giving us complex teachings or passages. I believe Bible giving us clear and simple things that we can understand them. I fear that dispensationalism easily cause people into confusion and misunderstandings, because this giving much of complex, because of men's philosophy according to Col. 2:8. I rather follow what the Bible actual saying than what men saying. So, telling me, who is "quick", who is "dead". And last, tell me, who is "sheep", who is "goat"? In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

Thank you for your kind words about my grandfather. You should know that he was not a dispensationalist, but that through his own personal study (not through Scofield) he came to a premil pretrib position. My father, a preacher for 60 years, was also premil pretrib, though he was not a dispensationalist. And I was premil pretrib through my own Bible study before becoming a dispensationalist. But as I've said, I really don't want to discuss it, so please don't ask me anymore about the sheep and the goats, etc.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

John of Japan, You saying that I didn't answer your question at post #89 and #91. So, I check post #89 and #91 as what you asked me. At post #89, you asking me, if I believe salvation is base by works? No. We are not saved by doing good works. We are saved by the grace THROUGH FAITH. - Eph. 2:8-9. Too many use Eph. 2:8-9 that they emphasis it that we are saved by the "grace" only, plus nothing. True, we are saved by the grace. But, the question is how? Grace is from God's character by his mercy toward people who believed and put faith/trusted on Jesus Christ. Eph. 2:8-9 is speaking of salvation at the beginning. Then, afterward, God is working in our lifetime - Eph. 2:10. Faith is more than just 'believed'. Faith shows of reply or react toward God. For example, when God called Abraham to leave his place in Genesis chapter 12. God told him of His promise, that Abraham's name shall be great and a great nation. Abraham have to believe in God by obeying Him. He left his country to follow God, that was his faith. At post #91, you asking, do I literally sold all what I have, and given to poor? No. I doesn't. I have good common sense what Matthew 19:26-26 was talking about. First, the rich man asked Christ, what can to do to have eternal life? Christ told him, if he wants to have eternal life, keep the commandments. That was Christ's own saying. Then, rich man told Him, he did these things in his youth life, but what thing, he miss or lack need to get eternal life. Christ told him, if he wants to be growing mature(godly life), then go and sell his things, and give them to poor, then he shall receive blessings from heaven, and come to follow him. I did reading it many times before. I understand it so well. I do not misunderstanding what Christ actual saying to him. No doubt, I do believe Christ was ACTUAL telling him to give up his life, and come to follow him. This seem sound like as "good works". No. Christ was testing upon him, of his FAITH. Sadly, the rich man lefft Christ, because he refuses give up his posession, because he have no faith in Christ as what He said to him. Look, there is much confusion and debate between "faith" and "work" among religions and Christians on salvation today. Abraham was saved by his faith. I think, Hebrews chapter 11 is a perfect example of "faith", what it is. Faith is an action, reply or react back to God's calling. Interesting, the fact as what Christ said, "Many were called, but few are chosen". "Many were called" means that, at the beginning many were saved by believed in Christ, did follow and obey Him. But, afterward, they turn away from Christ, and stopped follow Him at the end. Only remain few of true faithful Christians who did endure throughout the end are the true "chosen". Where are the "many"? Sadly, they had chosen their own ways like as they walk on wide road, where they want easy life, and want to stay in sinning, and pleasure life. Most of them are end up in hell - Matt. 7:13. Faith is not a one time event of "salvation". Faith is a lifetime. Paul told us, we should walk or live by the faith - Romans 1:17; and Hebrews 10:38. Without faith, impossible to please God. Again, we are not saved by good works. We are saved by the grace of God through our faith. Later this week, I am thinking of make new topic discuss on "faith" and "work". Because there are much confusion or misunderstanding on "faith" and "work" relate with salvation issue. They need to understand what is the "faith" means. In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

John of Japan, You saying of 'quick' means alive. Right, I agree with you. Actually, it means, to make alive. "Quick' represents born again Christians well as saved people. You saying of 2 Tim. 4:1, "Thus I believe that this will occur at the Second Coming of Christ. The living are those who have survived the tribulation period in my theology. The dead are those who died during the tribulation period." Oh really? Apostle Paul didn't actual saying it. Where did you get the idea come from? Also, I did show you of Acts 10:42, Peter preached, and he said, "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead." This verse talking about, Peter received commission from Jesus Christ for go and preach to the world, for to repent of sins, because Jesus will come again to judge the quick and dead, this is the picture of "Judgment day". In a good common sense, 'quick and dead' simple means saved and unsaved of the world. Not difficult to read and understand what these are talking about. In Christ Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

John of Japn, you saying of 2 Cor. 5:10 - 'judgment seat' in Greek word - 'bema'. You are correct. Also, in Matthew 27:11-31 telling us about Jesus was brought to stand before Pilate. Notice Matt. 27:19 says, "When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him." Notice word, 'judgment seat' in Greek is also 'bema'. "The Judgment Seat" is not always for the 'rewards'. It also could be include negatives. Also, there is no difference between 'seat' and 'throne', both are same. Isn't Christ seats on throne, to judge the world, same as Christ sits on throne to judge the world? If suppose, you saying both "Judgment Seat of Christ" & "great white throne" are different. Then does that mean, Christ have TWO different THRONES set in the heaven? Huh? For me, I simple believe both 'judgment seat of Christ' & 'great white throne' are same. Early in my Christian life, myself used as premill before. Now, I am amill. Because I can easily see one coming, one judgment day, one resurrection. I do not believe the Bible gives us complex things, I believe Bible teaching us the simple things. Even, I do not believe Christ gave complex of his teachings in the four gospels to Disciples and people. I believe Christ taught the simple things to them, so, He wants them to understand them. No doubt, Christ was actual taught one coming, one judgment day, and one resurrection day in the four gospels. That why I eschew premillennial doctrine, because it is so complex things filled of men's philosphy and it is only little over 100 years old. I reject men's teachings. These are unbiblical. I rather follow the Bible what it saying than what men saying. In Christ Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[JustChristian]

2 Cor. 5 is where the term bema comes from, where it is the Greek word for "seat" in "judgment seat of Christ."

2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


Why must we "labour that we may be accepted of him?" Doesn't labour indicate a work? Who is all as in "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ?" Why doesn't all mean everyone who ever lived? Why does verse 11 talk about the terror of the Lord if this passage only relates to the saved? Why is this scripture any different than MA 25 or REV 20? The answer is because they're all talking about the same event, the ONE Judgment.

 

[John of Japan]

And now, since DeafPosttrib and BaptistBeliever have both ignored my request that we stick to the OP and not discuss the judgments, I bid them both and this thread a fond Sayonara! :wavey:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

John of Japan, Excuse me. What things that BaptistBeliever and I ignore your request? And what is "OP"? By the way, where did you the idea from - your belief of 2 Tim. 4:1, which speak of "Seven Year of Tribulation Period" Survivors- 'Quick and Dead'? In Christ Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[JustChristian]

John of Japn, you saying of 2 Cor. 5:10 - 'judgment seat' in Greek word - 'bema'. You are correct. Also, in Matthew 27:11-31 telling us about Jesus was brought to stand before Pilate. Notice Matt. 27:19 says, "When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him." Notice word, 'judgment seat' in Greek is also 'bema'. "The Judgment Seat" is not always for the 'rewards'. It also could be include negatives. Also, there is no difference between 'seat' and 'throne', both are same. Isn't Christ seats on throne, to judge the world, same as Christ sits on throne to judge the world? If suppose, you saying both "Judgment Seat of Christ" & "great white throne" are different. Then does that mean, Christ have TWO different THRONES set in the heaven? Huh? For me, I simple believe both 'judgment seat of Christ' & 'great white throne' are same. Early in my Christian life, myself used as premill before. Now, I am amill. Because I can easily see one coming, one judgment day, one resurrection. I do not believe the Bible gives us complex things, I believe Bible teaching us the simple things. Even, I do not believe Christ gave complex of his teachings in the four gospels to Disciples and people. I believe Christ taught the simple things to them, so, He wants them to understand them. No doubt, Christ was actual taught one coming, one judgment day, and one resurrection day in the four gospels. That why I eschew premillennial doctrine, because it is so complex things filled of men's philosphy and it is only little over 100 years old. I reject men's teachings. These are unbiblical. I rather follow the Bible what it saying than what men saying. In Christ Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I think this is an important insight. I believe that the essential thing to be learned and treasured from the Bible is the simple gospel, that we must believe on and abide in our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ and that we are to show love towards the Father and our fellow human beings. That's it! Simple to say but hard to live. Recently one of my favorite passages of scripture is the one in which Jesus says "Suffer the little children to come into me for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven. If you don't become like one of these you will not enter the kingdom."

How simple yet how profound. We get into trouble when we claim to understand things that are on a higher plain. The message is simple. The challenge is clear. The fields are ready for the harvest.

BTW, I assume that you're deaf because of your handle. I've always had a great empathy for the deaf because both my mother and my aunt taught the deaf for over 30 years and they founded a pre-school for the deaf in Louisville, Ky. May God be with you.

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan, Excuse me. What things that BaptistBeliever and I ignore your request?

I requested that we stick to the OP and not discuss the judgments in the Bible.

And what is "OP"?

OP means "Opening Post." It is the first post in the thread (discussion), made by the person who started the thread. It is polite on Internet forums to stick to the subject in the OP and not "hijack" the thread with some other subject.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Now I got it! Well, Christ telling us, we must forake father or mother, or sister, or brother, or friend, or anything, come and to follow Christ. Also, if we love father or mother, or brother or sister or anything more than Jesus, then I am not worthy to Jesus's disciple. Notice Matt. 19:29 tells us very clear,- "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sister, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, AND SHALL INHERIT EVERLASTING LIFE." A person who want to have everlasting life, then surrender life to Jesus, and come to follow Him, then shall have eternal life. Believing, repent, and faith, all are go together with surrender. We know that Jesus is the Lord. Lord means master well as "boss". Christ tells us, we cannot serve two masters same time - Jesus and world. We must choose one master at once. Today, too many Christians are compromising with world while serve the Lord at same time. They are not actual follow Christ right. Notice next verse - Matt. 19:30 , Christ said, "But many that are first shall be last, and the last shall be first." This is the picture of being humble before God with right attitude. Notice many rich people are filled with pride, of being thinking theirselves, not think of Jesus and others, they are being "first", but they will be last. Otherwise, in another passage, Christ said, many were called, but few are chosen. Where are the "many"? Sadly, they make choice going in their own ways which they are on "wide road" of Matt. 7:13, looking for easy life than hard life. Obivously, salvation is conditional, that we must have faith, believing, trust, follow, and also, obey too. "Take up cross" is not easy. Many people think getting saved is easy. That is called, "Easy Believism", by just 'believed' in Jesus then saved, that's it, do nothing for Lord. Is that person actual saved? No. But, many people did actual repented of sins, did called upon Christ, did followed Christ at the beginning. But, somehow, they turn away from the Lord, return to world again, showing that they 'DROPPED" the cross on the floor not want to follow Christ anymore. Therefore, they are not saved at the end. Most of them easily quit and back to world again. There are actual FEW of people who are truly faithful follow Christ throughout life to end(at death) are the "chosen", then they receive eternal life. -Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13. You may accuse me that I believe salvation is "good works", fine with me. No. Getting salvation is not "work", it is about about faith. "Take up cross" is costly and willing of our life with obedience. Obivious, "take up cross" doesn't sound to me, it is unconditional security salvation doctrine. I used to believe in unconditional security salvation doctrine for many years. Till in year 2002, I was no longer believe in it. Because, I can easily see too many conditionals throughout from Genesis to Revelation. Clearly, the Bible does teaching us that salvation is conditional that we must meet: - believe, repent of sins, confession of sins, to be baptize, separate from world, obey, follow, serve Him, etc. If we do not meet these, then, we shall not have eternal life at the end. That what the Bible is clear teaching us. In Christ Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[JustChristian]

Now I got it! Well, Christ telling us, we must forake father or mother, or sister, or brother, or friend, or anything, come and to follow Christ. Also, if we love father or mother, or brother or sister or anything more than Jesus, then I am not worthy to Jesus's disciple. Notice Matt. 19:29 tells us very clear,- "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sister, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, AND SHALL INHERIT EVERLASTING LIFE." A person who want to have everlasting life, then surrender life to Jesus, and come to follow Him, then shall have eternal life. Believing, repent, and faith, all are go together with surrender. We know that Jesus is the Lord. Lord means master well as "boss". Christ tells us, we cannot serve two masters same time - Jesus and world. We must choose one master at once. Today, too many Christians are compromising with world while serve the Lord at same time. They are not actual follow Christ right. Notice next verse - Matt. 19:30 , Christ said, "But many that are first shall be last, and the last shall be first." This is the picture of being humble before God with right attitude. Notice many rich people are filled with pride, of being thinking theirselves, not think of Jesus and others, they are being "first", but they will be last. Otherwise, in another passage, Christ said, many were called, but few are chosen. Where are the "many"? Sadly, they make choice going in their own ways which they are on "wide road" of Matt. 7:13, looking for easy life than hard life. Obivously, salvation is conditional, that we must have faith, believing, trust, follow, and also, obey too. "Take up cross" is not easy. Many people think getting saved is easy. That is called, "Easy Believism", by just 'believed' in Jesus then saved, that's it, do nothing for Lord. Is that person actual saved? No. But, many people did actual repented of sins, did called upon Christ, did followed Christ at the beginning. But, somehow, they turn away from the Lord, return to world again, showing that they 'DROPPED" the cross on the floor not want to follow Christ anymore. Therefore, they are not saved at the end. Most of them easily quit and back to world again. There are actual FEW of people who are truly faithful follow Christ throughout life to end(at death) are the "chosen", then they receive eternal life. -Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13. You may accuse me that I believe salvation is "good works", fine with me. No. Getting salvation is not "work", it is about about faith. "Take up cross" is costly and willing of our life with obedience. Obivious, "take up cross" doesn't sound to me, it is unconditional security salvation doctrine. I used to believe in unconditional security salvation doctrine for many years. Till in year 2002, I was no longer believe in it. Because, I can easily see too many conditionals throughout from Genesis to Revelation. Clearly, the Bible does teaching us that salvation is conditional that we must meet: - believe, repent of sins, confession of sins, to be baptize, separate from world, obey, follow, serve Him, etc. If we do not meet these, then, we shall not have eternal life at the end. That what the Bible is clear teaching us. In Christ Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Absolutely. We have two major accounts of the Judgment in the Bible in MA 25 and REV 20. They describe t5he same criterion for entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

***************************************************************

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The Bible is very clear on this point, that "Grace alone" is simply not enough. A true Christian will pick up his cross and follow Jesus.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.