Take up his cross...

You don't understand. I didn't do an interpretation, I did an exegesis. Exegesis must be based on the grammar of the passage being exegeted. I dealt with that. You have not answered what I said.

Well, if you already know how I would exegete Matt. 25, then I guess I don't need to say anything. You already know all my doctrine!

The truth? No, I don't believe Matt. 25 is speaking of the bema judgment. But that is irrelevant to my exegesis of Matt. 7. Each passage deserves to be exegeted and interpreted on its own.

 

Is an exegesis of any value if it only looks at a few verses out of context? If you believe that MA 25 describes the ONE Judgment that all (believers and non-believers) must face what does this description say to you?

As far as answering what you said are you referring to my statement about the requirement for Christians to take up their cross and follow Him? Of course I would also include Christ's admonition to "Follow Me." I believe this is simple shorthand for the earlier command.

I have real doubts when people argue that a certain statement was only made to a person or group of persons in the Bible and therefore it doesn't pertain to me.

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

I've seen some dispensationalists argue that nothing in the four gospels is applicable to us.
In the extreme, this interpretation means nothing in the Bible pertains to us in 21st century America.

I would state again the the whole of Jesus ministry was directed at getting men to follow Him meaning not just believe on Him but abide in Him and keep his commandments.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jhn 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

This is my interpretation but I cannot believe that if you're not loved by Christ and the Father you will not wind up on the right hand side of Christ in the Judgment.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

And once again, this is not what I believe.

Prove from the Bible that "Follow me" is shorthand for "Take up your cross and follow me."

This is not what I have done. If you had read my posts in this thread, you would know that I believe that "Take up your cross and follow me applies to me and all Christians.

This is certainly not what I believe.

I agree.

 

I'm sorry. I misinterpreted your earlier reply. Most people who believe in more than one judgment believe that the descriptions in MA 25 and REV 20 do not apply to the saved. How many judgments do you think there will be and which one includes Christians?

The question about the difference between "Follow Me" and "Take up your cross and follow Me" I don't understand. If Jesus says:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

why does it matter that on another occasion he says:

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

In my view the first command pretty much covers the question.

 

BaptistBeliever,

You are not alone. I am also on your side. I used to believe in unconditional security salvation doctrine for many years. Till year 2002, I finally decide left unconditional security salvation doctrine, because I can see too many conditionals in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Cannot find a single verse prove unconditional.

I am going to make posts on this topic tonight.

Almost all IFB people strong believe in unconditional security salvation doctrine. They think it is a sound and biblical. I thought it is truth from Bible. But, there are too many twists within their interpreting scriptures.

For example, many IFB teachers teaching on talents of Matt. 25:14-29. They did talking about the first of two faithful servants with their talents. But, they seem say little on lazy servant with hid of talent. Why? Because they avoid Matt. 25:26-30. Verse 30 tells us, a lazy servant will be cast in everlasting fire. This is not unconditional security salvation doctrine. That why they always skip this verse 30.

Later tonight, I will show many passages in the Bible did talk on conditional salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

John of Japan, You mentioned of 'false prophets' in Matt. 7:15-20, and the passage of Matt. 7:21-23 have do nothing with people or us, it apply to 'false prophets'. Not always. Earlier, Christ mentioned of Matt. 7:13-14 on two roads. This is apply to us all, not just only on false prophets. Christ have good reason for mentioned on false prophets. First, Christ spoken of two roads of Matt. 7:13-14. Most will go on wide road which lead to hell, few will go on narrow road which lead to heaven. THEN, Christ said, "BEWARE of false prophets, which come to YOU in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matt. 7:15. Christ warns us, that we must watch out for 'false prophets'. 'False prophets' means false teachers, leaders, priests, pastors. Because Christ knew, many are misleading and are deceived by false teachers, for believing their teaching or preaching. Today, we already see so many religions out in the world, are deceive people, many are send to hell for believe false teachers' false teaching or preaching. That why, Christ is concerning over us, not just only on unbelievers, even, also Christians. In Matthew 24:24 says, "For there shall arise flase Christs; and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the VERY ELECT." Christ warns us, we must watch out for many false christs(1 John 4:1-3), and false teachers shall rise out into the world. Today, we already see so many false christs, and false teachers. Christ KNEW that, many elects will be deceive by false teachers(pastors), for believing lie preachings. Christ doesn't saying that, for sure that many elects would be deceived. He saying, it could happen to Christians. He means that, we must watch out for them. So, therefore, Matt. 7:21-23 is apply to every individual in the Judgment Day. Reading Matt. 7:13-23 is not difficult to understand. We must listen what Christ saying, follow his words. Yes, many false prophets will go to hell. Even, with many individuals will go hell for not believing on Christ, and stay in sinning life, and not follow Christ in lifetime. That what Christ saying. In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

John of Japan, What do you consider of Matt. 25:31-46 as what the name of Judgment would be? Tell me, who is the "sheep". and who is "goats"? In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

In Matt. 19:16-26 telling us about the rich man came and ask Jesus, what to do? Notice verse 16 says, "And behold, one came and said unto him, 'Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?' " The rich man asked Christ, what thing can he do to have eternal life. He was not asking for "rewards". He was asking for eternal life, obivious, he was talking about salvation. Then, Christ said to him, why he called him, a "Good Master"? There is no person is good, only God. And he said to him, if he wants eternal life, then to keep the commandments. Then, a rich man said to him, he did kept all things when he was young, but he asked Christ, what miss thing that he needs? Christ told him, if he want to be mature and growing, then go and sell all his posession, give them to poor people, and then shall receive blessings in heaven, and come and to follow Him. But, a rich man became bitter, and refuse willing to give all his things what he have, and turned away from Christ. The rich man has no faith in Christ, and clear, he is now in hell. Christ clear telling us, if we want to have eternal life, then give up our own life, and come to follow Him. This is conditional with our decision. Being take up the cross is not easy. It costly our life. Most of them easily give up and quit, then return back to world again, at the end, they are not receive eternal life, because they did not obey Christ. In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I believe there is the Bema seat judgement for Christians (only for rewards, not for punishment), probably in Heaven during the tribulation but I'm not sure; the judgement of nations at the end of the tribulation period; the Great White Throne judgement at the end of time.

These two statements are said to different audiences. Matt. 16:24 is clearly said to disciples. Therefore it is not an invitation to salvation.

Matt. 19:21 is said to the rich young ruler. This man is clearly seeking salvation, since he asks what he can do to have eternal life (v. 16). Christ's answer is to tell him how he can be perfect (v. 21). Why? The rich young ruler was looking for a salvation that can be obtained by works, since he said, "What shall I do....?" (v. 21). Christ's goal here was to show the young man that, as good as he thought he was, since he falsely claimed to have kept the whole law (v. 20), he was still lost since he was not perfect. If the man had agreed to do what Christ said, then Christ would have told him about salvation by faith, which is the only way to get saved.

So, these two passages have different audiences, different purposes and different phraseology. They are not teaching the same thing.

 

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you are saying to me here, since you haven't quoted or discussed anything I said. As far as I can tell, we agree on this passage, unless you are saying that there is only one judgement, with Christians and the lost all lumped together.

 

So, are you saying that in order to be saved we must give up everything we have, like Christ told the rich young ruler? If you are saying that, then you believe in a works salvation. Christ was proving to the rich young ruler that he was not perfect and therefore could not be saved by his works, since the man asked "What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

Let me ask you, if this passage is teaching how all should be saved, have you obeyed it? Have you literally sold all you have and given to the poor? If you haven't, then by your plan of salvation you are not saved.

When we came to Japan to be missionaries, we left behind jobs, family, friends, possessions, land, literally all we had. But we didn't give a penny to the poor! So I haven't done what Christ said to do. If this is Christ's plan of salvation then I'm lost too! But it isn't. This passage is talking about works, not faith. I thank God that salvation is not based on what we do but on what Christ did. :type:

 

John of Japan,The rich man was probably knew Jesus is the Lord, because he heard rumors from spreading over Israel, on Jesus for doing miracles, and wonderful teachings. Also, Jesus knew that man is rich. When the rich man asked question to him, what to do to have eternal life. Christ could have told him, "Believe on me, you may have eternal life." But, Christ told him, if he wants eternal life, keep his commandments. That what Christ said. So, the rich man told him, he did these things in his youth, but what miss thing, that he needs? He told him, to give everything what he have possession, give to poor and come to follow Christ. Christ knew that rich man's heart was harden, because he doesn't want to lose his own things. Christ said, hard for rich people to enter the kingdom of heaven, because of pride and prosperity. Poor people easily enter into the kingdom of heaven, because of humble. This passage is not talking about works. Christ's point was about faith. Look at the example of Abraham. He was very wealthy man in the land of Ur. He have lot of things that he possessed them. One day, God told him that, he will give him a great name and multiply blessing to him, also called him to left home, and to follow Him, where he goes. Abraham was rich man, but he follow God, because he have faith in God. Do you consider that Matt. 19:16-26, is not apply to us, correct? If so, tell me why this passage is not apply to us? How about Lukr 9:23-26? Does this passage apply to us? I truly believe this passage is clear apply to us. This passage apply to all individuals either Jew or Gentile. Christ tells us, if we want to come and to follow him, then deny our life, take up the cross come to follow Christ, shall have eternal life. If anyone do not take up cross and follow Christ, shall be ashamed of Christ and angels at the Judgment Day. That mean, anyone who deny Christ, then Christ shall deny person, send away to everlasting fire. In 2 Tim. 2:12 says, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us." This passage clear speak to us as Christians. If we suffering in our life for Christ's sake, we shall reign with Christ(pictured as eternal life- Rev. 20:4-6), if we deny Christ, then, Christ would deny us at the Judgment Day. Deny means reject or disown. What would happen to Christian who deny Christ at the Judgment Day? How about Matt. 25:26-30? Does passage of Matt. 25:14-30 of three servants with their talents apply to us? If so, Christ will saying to an evil servant who hide talent, "You wicked and lazy servant", cast him away into the outer darkness, is clear speak of everlasting punishment in hell. There are so much overwhelmed conditionals throughout from Genesis to Revelation everywhere. "Believe", "Faith", "Call", "Obey", etc. all of these are conditional, that our responsible to reply back to God's calling. Jesus telling, many were called, but few chosen. At the beginning, many were called, then afterward, most of them quit and back to world again, few remain and are truly chosen at the end. Where the "many" going? Obvious, many are on the way to hell, because of not willing to follow Christ. That why, Matt. 7:13-14 telling us, most are on wide road than who entering narrow road. Because, many choose easy life, and being deceived by many false religions. Only few enter into the narrow raod, because they willing to face difficult way by obey and follow Christ all the way to the end. Sadly, most are end up on wide road which lead to hell. Clear, this is conditional. Later I will make more posts on passages on conditional with verses. In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

John of Japan, you say, "I believe there is the Bema seat judgment for Christians (only for rewards, not for punishment), probably in Heaven during the tribulation but I'm not sure; the judgement of nations at the end of the tribulation period; the Great White Trhone judgment at the end of time." I ask you question. Who is "sheep" of Matt. 25:31-33? Who is "goat" of Matt. 25:31-33? The Bible doesn't teaching us, there will be two or three future judgment days. The Bible clearly teaching us there will be one judgment day follow at Christ's coming. In Acts 10:42 tells us, Christ commands us, go and preach to the world, because Christ shall come as the Judge to judge quick and dead. In 2 Timothy 4:2 says, "I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead AT his appearing and his kingdom." Apostle Paul was clear taught there will be one judgment day. I ask you, who is the "quick"? Who is the "dead"? The Bible is clear teaching there are two classes over the world today - lost and saved people. That's simple, no complex. In Matt. 13:24-30; 37-43 telling us, both lost and saved people are growing together in the world. When at the end of the world, Christ shall come with his angels, there will be harvest over the world, to apart them into two classes - wheat and tares. Wheat and tares are same illustration of "sheep" & "goat" as two groups. Even as described of "quick and dead". There are only two classes over the world. To be honest with you, I can easily see one future coming, and one judgment day in the Bible. Reading passages in Bible is not difficult. Why cannot you accept clear teaching from Jesus Christ, that there will be one future coming and one judgment day? Stop listening what dispensationalism stuffs saying about the end times, rather listen what God's Word saying, follow God's Words than what the men saying according Colossians 2:8.In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Excuse me, I have problems with my computer, because I think my computer having virus. It needs to be repaired. That why, my posts are not neat correctly. Sorry. In Christ Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

You start your post with speculation: "The rich man was probably knew Jesus is the Lord...." Then you continue with other speculations: "What would happen to Christian...." "Christ could have told him...." "If so...."

I'm sorry, but speculation is a poor way to do Bible study. I have no time to answer speculations.

You also say that selling all of your goods and giving to the poor "is not talking about works." I'm amazed and bemused! What in the world does something have to be before it is works??? Your whole argument falls apart because you don't seem to know what works are.

 

I really don't want to get too far into the judgements because that is not what this thread is about.

We'll just have to differ here. Contrary to you, I believe that the Bible clearly teaches more than one judgement. But again, that is not what this thread is about, and I have no inner need to explain my doctrine to you. (Don't be offended by this, please.) I will say, though, that the KJV word "quick" meant "living" in 1611. "Living and dead" is a different story from "lost and saved."

I don't need dispensationalism to teach me that there is more than one judgement. My father and grandfather believed this as well, and they were not dispensationalists (though I am). It simply takes the grammatical-historical (that is literal) interpretation of the Bible to believe as I do. A very simple reading of the passages on the Bema judgment and the Great White throne shows that they are different. But you seem to have some other method of interpretation, since you believe that selling all your goods and giving to the poor are not works.

 

John of Japan, At first, the rich ruler heard rumours spread on Jesus, he thought Jesus is a good master like as leader. Does he actually realize that Jesus is Messiah? I do not think so. But, the rich ruler really want to know how can he go enter eternal life. He was not asking for 'rewards', he asked about how to have eternal life. Christ already knew before the rich man asking him. First, when the rich man asked him, what things he shall to do to have eternal life. Christ cannot ignore or avoid man's question. Christ have to answer his question. He told him, if he wants to have eternal life, then keep the commandments. THEN, the rich man saying to him, he did kept them in his youth life, but what missing thing that he needs for eternal life. Christ told him, to sell his things and give them to the poor, and will receive blessings in heaven and come to follow him. The rich man became bitter, and walked away. Christ didn't saying to him, "Just believe in me, and you will have eternal life.", He was testing upon rich man, to see if he have the true faith. Christ was NOT discuss about "good work" for eternal life. Christ was challenged rich man on faith. Christ was emphasis on faith, not "good works." The rich man became bitter what Christ saying to him. He was worry over his earthly things what he possesses, he doesn't want to lost his things and also, his reputation too. That why he have no faith in Christ. He went away, and is now in hell, because of not faith and not believe on Christ. In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

John of Japan,You saying, the word, 'quick' in 1611 A.V. is "living". I do have 1611 A.V. Bible with me in my library. I did check on Acts 10:42 for 'quick'. In 1611 A.V. says, "quicke". Also, I check in 2 Tim. 4:1 for 'quick' in 1611 A.V. It says, "quicke". I ask you where you find word, "living" in 1611 A.V. which relate with "quick". By the way, you didn't answer my question- Who is the "quick"? Who is "dead"? I am waiting on you to answer my question. Not long time ago, I did read your posts, that Late Dr. John R. Rice was your grandfather. I do have Dr. Rice books with me. I love Sword of the Lord. I still admire your grandfather. Not because of his beliefs, because of his godly life, and a great prayer. I do respect your grandfather so well. Dispensationalism was developing when your grandfather was a young man. C.I. Scofield developed that doctrine while your grandfather was in college during in year around 1910's. Early Church taught only one future coming, one judgment day, God's one family. I believe both judgment seat of Christ and great white throne are same judgment day. Because, in Revelation 11:15-19 is clearly telling us at seventh trumpet(last trump of 1 Cor. 15:51) shall be sounded, then all dead shall be resurrect, both shall be judged and give rewards. This very clear picture of one future coming, one future judgment day. Also, in Rev. 22:12, Christ said, "Abd behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give man according as his work shall be." This is clearly telling us, at second coming, Christ shall bring rewards with him to give individual of their works. This is only one future coming, one judgment day. I do not believe the Bible giving us complex teachings or passages. I believe Bible giving us clear and simple things that we can understand them. I fear that dispensationalism easily cause people into confusion and misunderstandings, because this giving much of complex, because of men's philosophy according to Col. 2:8. I rather follow what the Bible actual saying than what men saying. So, telling me, who is "quick", who is "dead". And last, tell me, who is "sheep", who is "goat"? In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Again, sorry my posts, all sentences are together. Because I have problem with computer, it needs to be fixing. So, my posts will be much clearer and understand better. I hope that you understand what I mean. Thanks. In ChristRev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

You said this in an earlier post:

The truth? No, I don't believe Matt. 25 is speaking of the bema judgment.

Now you say:

I believe there is the Bema seat judgement for Christians (only for rewards, not for punishment), probably in Heaven during the tribulation but I'm not sure; the judgement of nations at the end of the tribulation period; the Great White Throne judgement at the end of time.


If the Bema seat judgment is not described in MA 25 where is it addressed in the Bible?