Take up his cross...

[LeBuick]

This generation will know the meaning of "Take up thy cross and follow me" very soon. It will come upon us just as quick as the Berlin wall came down.

Are you referring to the push to separate Church from state? How religion is being removed from all other aspects of our society?

 

[nunatak]

If you'll look more closely I believe you'll find that He preached it to the disciples and sometimes the crowd (oxlos in the Gr.) happened to be there. The crowd might or might not have been believers, we can't tell by the text. It is putting something into the text that is not there to say the crowd must have been unbelievers.

Actually, I've done extensive study on this very issue, and I urge you to study the issure more carefully. Christ used the word differently from the book of Acts, maybe due to His Aramaic. He often put conditions or distinctives on the term disciple which were not there in the book of Acts: abiding in the Word, loving the brethren, committment, etc. (I have a message in which I preach four signs of discipleship, four distinctions He made for the term "disciple.") On the other hand, Luke (with his pure Greek as opposed to translated Greek) used the term in Acts to simply mean "believer," such as the disciples first being called Christians at Antioch.

Note also that the Pauline equivalent of "take up your cross" is "Offer your body as a living sacrifice," which was specifically said to brothers, not the lost.

I have to hit the sack here in Japan. Oyasumi nasai. (Sleep well.) :sleeping_2:

I would like to know what you consider the four distinctions to be. Also, today people don't bear literal crosses. So, I guess, did Jesus specifically mean that some would literally have to be martyred? Is this to be literally interpreted?

How does an American, (I don't want to be self-centered, but this is where I live,) take up his cross, literal or otherwise?

I feel like I am missing something here. The purpose of scripture is to point us to Christ, not to ourselves.

 

[Palatka51]

Are you referring to the push to separate Church from state? How religion is being removed from all other aspects of our society?

Congress should not establish a religion. We are now in the third generation of the gospel removed from public education. Now look around and you will see that anything Christian is systematically being removed. When I started to work for Coca Cola in '92 we started the day in prayer in the sales room floor. lWe have moved the Christian life out of anything in society and consigned it to our homes and Churches only. Now our city streets are running with blood. Violence is bred in the schools. Mother is killing her unborn child. Our leaders look for personal power while rejecting the needs and protection of our people. Meanwhile the people of Christian name are flocking to the gospel of prosperity. The prosperity gospel rejects the call to carry our cross. Not many are willing to take it up anymore. That is many in this nation. :tear:
Try becoming a Christian in Saudi Arabia, India, China and many others then one will understand the meaning. All ready Pastors are subject to judgments against "hate speech" if they preach against alternative life styles in Canada.

Yes we will very soon be called to carry that cross.

 

[Havensdad]

I have always taught/preached this as a threefold COST of discipleship not to be confused with how t become a disciple.

First he says, "deny oneself"--- This means a willingness to give up worldly materials and self gratification in order focus and surrender one's self to the purpose and Will of God. A man can't serve two masters, this includes one's self. We are encouraged to not be self-center but to be God-centered (kind of gives prosperity preaching a black eye).

Secondly (and separately) he says, "take up His cross" or more appropriately "Take up THE cross". This deals with the extent to which you will deny self. Unto death as the cross in their time was a symbol of death. This means followers must be committed to be obedient to God's Word no matter what the consequences are for the sake of the gospel. This is really extreme religion in Jesus time because it meant facing social and political oppression and ostracism. There was no middle ground and certainly no turning back. Taking up the cross was expressing your willingness to die.

The last being, "and follow me".

I see this more as the COST of being saved vs How one is saved.

I agree> yet it is still a gospel proclamation> just one that warns of the Cost.

Salvation is free to receive. Yet those who are saved, will be placed in situations that will cost them dearly.

The point of all this, is the refutation of those who think you can be "saved" by praying some prayer, but then NOT ever actually follow Christ> a.k.a Cheap Grace doctrine.

 

[webdog]

I agree> yet it is still a gospel proclamation> just one that warns of the Cost.

Then continue to believe that. What is that saying about a multitude of counselors?...

And please, don't call the grace of my Savior "cheap".

 

[LeBuick]

I would like to know what you consider the four distinctions to be. Also, today people don't bear literal crosses. So, I guess, did Jesus specifically mean that some would literally have to be martyred? Is this to be literally interpreted?

How does an American, (I don't want to be self-centered, but this is where I live,) take up his cross, literal or otherwise?

I feel like I am missing something here. The purpose of scripture is to point us to Christ, not to ourselves.

I'm not speaking for JOJ but my understanding is "BE WILLING" to die. All are not called to be martyr's but all should be willing to confess their faith even unto death. Consider the three Hebrew boys, they didn't die but they certianly showed where their faith was.

 

[Palatka51]

I'm not speaking for JOJ but my understanding is "BE WILLING" to die. All are not called to be martyr's but all should be willing to confess their faith even unto death. Consider the three Hebrew boys, they didn't die but they certianly showed where their faith was.

By some reports, Christopher Columbus suffered from gout in his latter years. He determined to himself that his lack of carrying his cross in his younger years was why his feet and toes were so painful at night. He would be seen carrying a cross during the day in hopes to ward of the demons that would attack his feet keeping him from getting sleep.

Carrying our cross is willingness to follow Christ where ever we might be led to go. He was led to Calvary, we indeed might be led to die for Him as well. However, honestly to live for Him just might be the heaviest cross of them all. Enduring old age as John did, even after all the attempts on his life, or being able to discern that a medical condition is not a demonic attack but to glorify Christ no matter what we might be facing.

 

[Havensdad]

Then continue to believe that. What is that saying about a multitude of counselors?...

And please, don't call the grace of my Savior "cheap".

Apparently you did not actually read his post> he agreed the cost of being saved was high. See he said>

I see this more as the COST of being saved vs How one is saved.

You are, in fact the only person on here who has completely disagreed with me.

My Lord's Grace is NOT cheap! It empowers one, makes them a new creature, puts our old sinful nature to death, and causes us to live a Godly life! Thats not cheap! That is a precious gift!

Rather, the Grace in some individuals false theology is cheap, that attempt to make Christ's sacrifice worthless before the resurrection. But THAT is not the Grace of Christ.

 

[LeBuick]

Carrying our cross is willingness to follow Christ where ever we might be led to go. He was led to Calvary, we indeed might be led to die for Him as well. However, honestly to live for Him just might be the heaviest cross of them all. Enduring old age as John did, even after all the attempts on his life, or being able to discern that a medical condition is not a demonic attack but to glorify Christ no matter what we might be facing.

Wow, now you really hit the nail on the head here... solid hit! :thumbs:

 

[Havensdad]

BTW Webdog, I take it we will NOT be seeing you at the Together for the Gospel conference? :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Apparently you did not actually read his post> he agreed the cost of being saved was high. See he said>



You are, in fact the only person on here who has completely disagreed with me.

Maybe it is you who did not read his post. Here it is... "I have always taught/preached this as a threefold COST of discipleship not to be confused with how to become a disciple."

As JoJ pointed out also (making me not the only person to disagree), the passage is not dealing with salvation.

 

[LeBuick]

You are, in fact the only person on here who has completely disagreed with me.

My Lord's Grace is NOT cheap! It empowers one, makes them a new creature, puts our old sinful nature to death, and causes us to live a Godly life! Thats not cheap! That is a precious gift!

Rather, the Grace in some individuals false theology is cheap, that attempt to make Christ's sacrifice worthless before the resurrection. But THAT is not the Grace of Christ.

I see what you're attempting to say but it's easy to confuse your argument with works based salvation. We don't want to see someone walking down the street with a cross on his shoulder believing he is saved. For this reason I limit my teaching of salvation to Faith and Faith alone. Not even denying self with save you, Fiath is the only way...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Havensdad]

Maybe it is you who did not read his post. Here it is... "I have always taught/preached this as a threefold COST of discipleship not to be confused with how to become a disciple."

As JoJ pointed out also (making me not the only person to disagree), the passage is not dealing with salvation.

If you look at the bottom of his post he says it is referring o the COST of being saved: therefore discipleship is something that comes from salvation, not some extra choice we make.

Are you the teaching a works based salvation? In regards to "taking up the Cross", Jesus says "what good is it, if a man gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul". So we have to work for our salvation, s that what your saying?

Because I take it to mean the discipleship of individuals starts AT salvation, not that one must work to be saved..

 

[webdog]

Yes...cost OF being saved...not cost in BECOMING saved. As much as you are trying to fit this square peg into the round hole, it won't fit. It is not a salvific message.

 

[Havensdad]

I see what you're attempting to say but it's easy to confuse your argument with works based salvation. We don't want to see someone walking down the street with a cross on his shoulder believing he is saved. For this reason I limit my teaching of salvation to Faith and Faith alone. Not even denying self with save you, Fiath is the only way...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Mat 4:18 While walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon (who is called Peter) and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen.
Mat 4:19 And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
Mat 4:20 Immediately they left their nets and followed him.

Mat 4:21 And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them.
Mat 4:22 Immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

Did these men get saved because of their "works"? No, rather as James states "I will show you MY faith, by my works!"

This is the kind of faith that saves> not simple abstract belief. It is a faith that says "yes Lord, I trust you", not one that says "Yeah, I guess I want to be saved, I suppose".

I TOTALLY agree that salvation is by faith. But faith is not just "belief" it is putting your trust in Christ. How can you put your trust in Christ, and NOT be a "follower"?

 

[LeBuick]

Mat 4:18 While walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon (who is called Peter) and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen.
Mat 4:19 And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
Mat 4:20 Immediately they left their nets and followed him.

Mat 4:21 And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them.
Mat 4:22 Immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

Did these men get saved because of their "works"? No, rather as James states "I will show you MY faith, by my works!"

This is the kind of faith that saves> not simple abstract belief. It is a faith that says "yes Lord, I trust you", not one that says "Yeah, I guess I want to be saved, I suppose".

I TOTALLY agree that salvation is by faith. But faith is not just "belief" it is putting your trust in Christ. How can you put your trust in Christ, and NOT be a "follower"?

Are you implying they were saved when they left their nets to follow Jesus?

What were they saved unto?

At this point what did they know about Jesus that would give them saving faith?

What were they believing in?

Go back and read Mt 16:13-20...

Mt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

 

[Havensdad]

Are you implying they were saved when they left their nets to follow Jesus?

Are you saying if they would have died an hour after this, they would have went to Hell?

Of course they were saved. They trusted Christ, and followed Him. Are you saying something MORE than faith and trust in Christ is necessary for salvation?

What were they saved unto?

Eternal Life. Same as you and I. Of course, they were not empowered yet, because the "Spirit had not yet been given".

At this point what did they know about Jesus that would give them saving faith?

So your saying we are saved by Faith and trust in Jesus, PLUS a BaTh? Jesus said come, they came. They demonstrated trusting Faith.
Now, COULD they have not been saved at this point? Yes. Just as a person who says "I have faith and trust in Christ" might not be saved.

What were they believing in?

Jesus.

Go back and read Mt 16:13-20...

Mt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

So, NONE were saved or went to Heaven before this? I think not...

This is just a clarification. Obviously this is something Peter already believed. If some grungy long haired hippy looking guy came up to you and said "follow me", would you drop what you were doing, and go?

 

[JustChristian]

It was not a salvational message. An unbeliever doesn't know what it means to follow Christ and giving up their lives to do so.

That was basically Jesus; message to the rich young ruler and he wasn't saved. Taking up your cross and following Him means that you must make Christ the Lord of your life in order to be saved. The rich young ruler wasn't willing to do that and he went away unsaved.

 

[John of Japan]

Actually, if you look closer, you will see that he specifically calls to everyone with this message, and this is also, specifically in context, a message of salvation, and a warning to the "throng".
Mar 8:34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, "If anyone( he said anyone> not just believers) would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Mar 8:35 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.
Mar 8:36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?

The point of one taking up his cross, and following Christ, is that they woulld save their life, and not forfeit their soul. Very much a salvific message.

I have very little time right now, but I want to briefly respond. Even if we say that part of the sermon was to lost people, why would that mean that the whole sermon was? Have you never preached a message to both saved and lost people? That Jesus sometimes did so is clear from the Sermon on the Mount, where almost all of the sermon is to saved disciples, but the parable of the wise man and foolish man appears to be to the lost.

On another subject, and not meaning to hijack this thread, but why did you not come back to your "Evangelist Question" thread? Tom Bryant has given you some good words there and deserves at least a thank you. I listened to your sermon as per your link and would have talked about it with you, but you never came back. Now I don't remember much about it, and I don't have time to re-listen to it since we head to the big city tomorrow to renew the "period of stay" on our visas.

 

[webdog]

That was basically Jesus; message to the rich young ruler and he wasn't saved. Taking up your cross and following Him means that you must make Christ the Lord of your life in order to be saved. The rich young ruler wasn't willing to do that and he went away unsaved.

Not really. The message to the RYR was to quit trusting in his wealth and works and to trust in Him. It doesn't compare to "taking up your cros..."