Talk of drones patrolling US skies spawns anxiety

[freeatlast]

The prospect that thousands of drones could be patrolling U.S. skies...
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Talk-of-drones-patrolling-US-skies-spawns-anxiety-3643288.php

 

[Sapper Woody]

Giving drones greater access to U.S. skies moves the nation closer to "a surveillance society in which our every move is monitored, tracked, recorded and scrutinized by the authorities," the American Civil Liberties Union declared in a report last December.

The ACLU has obviously never flown a drone. I have, however. It's not my Primary MOS, but as an engineer conducting route clearance and overwatch, I am certified on the RAVEN and PUMA Small Unmanned Aeriel Vehicles (SUAVs).

I can't explain all the reasons of why these won't be used for surveillance on a mass scale. But, suffice it to say, it would be totally impractical. Especially when we have other ways in place already.

Our every move is already tracked and monitored. That's one reason we are moving towards a cashless society (or so the conspiracy theorists would have you believe). They can track your debit/credit cards. So they know where you have been.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Since paranoid people all say we're being spied on constantly, I don't suppose a little more spying would matter. :laugh: Just because people are paranoid, it doesn't mean we're not being watched. :smilewinkgrin: I suppose there is the possibility of a drone crashing into a home or other populated area.

 

[carpro]

"Anxiety" ?

In whom?

The "political margins", meaning CTs. As always.

 

[Don]

The ACLU has obviously never flown a drone. I have, however. It's not my Primary MOS, but as an engineer conducting route clearance and overwatch, I am certified on the RAVEN and PUMA Small Unmanned Aeriel Vehicles (SUAVs).

That is so COOL. But ya gotta tell me: did the video game skills help or hinder?

 

[Amy.G]

Drones probably wouldn't fare well in the south. There are plenty of people that would love to shoot them out of the sky. :laugh:

They'd probably even have drone season! :laugh:

 

[Winman]

Since paranoid people all say we're being spied on constantly, I don't suppose a little more spying would matter. :laugh: Just because people are paranoid, it doesn't mean we're not being watched. :smilewinkgrin: I suppose there is the possibility of a drone crashing into a home or other populated area.

I'm only paranoid because everyone's out to get me. :tongue3:

 

[poncho]

The ACLU has obviously never flown a drone. I have, however. It's not my Primary MOS, but as an engineer conducting route clearance and overwatch, I am certified on the RAVEN and PUMA Small Unmanned Aeriel Vehicles (SUAVs).

I can't explain all the reasons of why these won't be used for surveillance on a mass scale. But, suffice it to say, it would be totally impractical. Especially when we have other ways in place already.

Our every move is already tracked and monitored. That's one reason we are moving towards a cashless society (or so the conspiracy theorists would have you believe). They can track your debit/credit cards. So they know where you have been.

So who is you work for again? The people of the United States or the surveillance state?

<pa deleted - LE>

Where is the outrage?

The Judeo-Christian and constitutionally mandated relationship between government power and individual liberty is not balance. It is bias -- a bias in favor of liberty. All presumptions should favor the natural rights of individuals, not the delegated and seized powers of the government. Individual liberty, not government power, is the default position because persons are immortal and created in God's image, and governments are temporary and based on force.

Hence my outrage at the coming use of drones -- some as small as golf balls -- to watch us, to listen to us and to record us. Did you consent to the government having that power? Did you consent to the American military spying on Americans in America? I don't know a single person who has, but I know only a few who are complaining.

If we remain silent when our popularly elected government violates the laws it has sworn to uphold and steals the freedoms we elected it to protect, we will have only ourselves to blame when Big Brother is everywhere. Somehow, I doubt my father's generation fought the Nazis in World War II only to permit a totalitarian government to flourish here.

Is President Obama prepared to defend this? Is Gov. Romney prepared to challenge it? Are you prepared for its consequences?

​

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/06/07/where-is-outrage/#ixzz1yJ52NkXr

Impractical you say? When is the last time the government did anything practical?

Got an off topic question I've been wanting to ask you Sapper. Are there any legal orders in an illegal war? You don't have to answer it. Just mull it over.​

 

[carpro]

Well, Poncho, you finally produced a source that has my repect, instead of some off the wall CT nut.

Now, I'll pay attention.

And thank you.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[freeatlast]

The ACLU has obviously never flown a drone. I have, however. It's not my Primary MOS, but as an engineer conducting route clearance and overwatch, I am certified on the RAVEN and PUMA Small Unmanned Aeriel Vehicles (SUAVs).

I can't explain all the reasons of why these won't be used for surveillance on a mass scale. But, suffice it to say, it would be totally impractical. Especially when we have other ways in place already.

Our every move is already tracked and monitored. That's one reason we are moving towards a cashless society (or so the conspiracy theorists would have you believe). They can track your debit/credit cards. So they know where you have been.

[SIZE=+0]Not being done on a mass scale is the same claim that the government always uses. Our freedoms, rights, and liberties are being chipped away and the ones who are suppose to be upholding our constitutional rights are the very ones who have been blinded and brain washed into stripping them away.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]I am amazed at just how blind and brain washed the people can be. If we look back to 911 and what took place through HLS and the rapid growth in the strong arming of the TSA and how it has evolved into a NAZI style entity and now the people are confortable with it what we have is an open door for the growth of this big brother in other areas like drones. We are being slaughtered like sheep without a word. All this we are seeing before our eyes is the stage being set for the military to take control of our lives much like what we are seeing around the world today in places like Egypt, Syria, Iran and others.
Our military will be used against us and this is just one more tool to help them have control over us.
[/SIZE]

 

[freeatlast]

So who is you work for again? The people of the United States or the surveillance state?

Scuse me for saying so but for a person that is supposedly charged with protecting and defending the U.S. constitution you seem to be quite comfortable siding with the tyranny that's sawing it asunder.

Where is the outrage?

The Judeo-Christian and constitutionally mandated relationship between government power and individual liberty is not balance. It is bias -- a bias in favor of liberty. All presumptions should favor the natural rights of individuals, not the delegated and seized powers of the government. Individual liberty, not government power, is the default position because persons are immortal and created in God's image, and governments are temporary and based on force.

Hence my outrage at the coming use of drones -- some as small as golf balls -- to watch us, to listen to us and to record us. Did you consent to the government having that power? Did you consent to the American military spying on Americans in America? I don't know a single person who has, but I know only a few who are complaining.

If we remain silent when our popularly elected government violates the laws it has sworn to uphold and steals the freedoms we elected it to protect, we will have only ourselves to blame when Big Brother is everywhere. Somehow, I doubt my father's generation fought the Nazis in World War II only to permit a totalitarian government to flourish here.

Is President Obama prepared to defend this? Is Gov. Romney prepared to challenge it? Are you prepared for its consequences?


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/06/07/where-is-outrage/#ixzz1yJ52NkXr

Impractical you say? When is the last time the government did anything practical?​

Got an off topic question I've been wanting to ask you Sapper. Are there any legal orders in an illegal war? You don't have to answer it. Just mull it over.​

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[carpro]

[SIZE=+0] We are being slaughtered like sheep without a word. [/SIZE]

Being a little overly dramatic, aren't you? :laugh:

 

[Sapper Woody]

So who is you work for again? The people of the United States or the surveillance state?

Scuse me for saying so but for a person that is supposedly charged with protecting and defending the U.S. constitution you seem to be quite comfortable siding with the tyranny that's sawing it asunder.

Where is the outrage?

The Judeo-Christian and constitutionally mandated relationship between government power and individual liberty is not balance. It is bias -- a bias in favor of liberty. All presumptions should favor the natural rights of individuals, not the delegated and seized powers of the government. Individual liberty, not government power, is the default position because persons are immortal and created in God's image, and governments are temporary and based on force.

Hence my outrage at the coming use of drones -- some as small as golf balls -- to watch us, to listen to us and to record us. Did you consent to the government having that power? Did you consent to the American military spying on Americans in America? I don't know a single person who has, but I know only a few who are complaining.

If we remain silent when our popularly elected government violates the laws it has sworn to uphold and steals the freedoms we elected it to protect, we will have only ourselves to blame when Big Brother is everywhere. Somehow, I doubt my father's generation fought the Nazis in World War II only to permit a totalitarian government to flourish here.

Is President Obama prepared to defend this? Is Gov. Romney prepared to challenge it? Are you prepared for its consequences?

​

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/06/07/where-is-outrage/#ixzz1yJ52NkXr

Impractical you say? When is the last time the government did anything practical?

Wow. You totally took my words and twisted them. All I was saying is that it won't happen, simply because it would be very, very impractical. I never advocated for a surveillance state. I simply stated the fact that they have easier ways of doing it than drones, including my example of debit/credit card tracking. UAVs are meant for specific targeted surveillance. Not a blanket coverage.

Got an off topic question I've been wanting to ask you Sapper. Are there any legal orders in an illegal war? You don't have to answer it. Just mull it over.

Well, you mean my orders like, "Be in the proper uniform at all times"? Or were you refering more to the orders like "Don't fire unless fired upon first, you have positive identification, and there are no civilians around to get hurt"?

Scuse me for saying so but for a person that is supposedly charged with protecting and defending the U.S. constitution you seem to be quite comfortable siding with the tyranny that's sawing it asunder.

No. I won't excuse you for saying so. You make assumptions based upon preconceived prejudices without examining my actual words. Then twist them into your preconceived notions, and then condemn me based upon your inferrences. No, sir, you are not excused.

did the video game skills help or hinder?

Definitely a help. In fact, our IED interrogation robots actually have a controller identical to the Playstation.

 

[freeatlast]

Being a little overly dramatic, aren't you? :laugh:

Honestly I don't think so. I certainly am not trying to be. If anything I am treading lightly. I think that the average citizen has been put to sleep and does not understand what is happening. I am going to try and find a short interview with Michael Bachman and it will shed some light as how serious a problem we are in.

 

[carpro]

Honestly I don't think so. I certainly am not trying to be. If anything I am treading lightly. I think that the average citizen has been put to sleep and does not understand what is happening. I am going to try and find a short interview with Michael Bachman and it will shed some light as how serious a problem we are in.

"Slaughtered"? Come on. :laugh:

So if you're not being overly dramatic, I guess we need some statistics on who is being "slaughtered" , how many and how they died.

You don't help your cause with that kind of silly claim.

 

[targus]

Being a little overly dramatic, aren't you? :laugh:

Over dramatic is an understatement.

 

[ktn4eg]

As I mentioned in another thread about a month ago, the unit of the Tennessee Air National Guard from which I retired in 2005--the 118th Airlift Wing, Nashville--is scheduled to lose all of its C-130 transport aircraft (which they had for about at least 30 years). They are being replaced with UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles = drones). In fact, even the designation "Airlift" is being dropped from the unit's designation, thus it will now be called simply the 118th Wing.

If the use of drones by the military is not going to be for domestic purposes, why is a reserve component of the USAF (nominally under the command of Tennesssee's Military Department) going to be using them?

 

[Sapper Woody]

As I mentioned in another thread about a month ago, the unit of the Tennessee Air National Guard from which I retired in 2005--the 118th Airlift Wing, Nashville--is scheduled to lose all of its C-130 transport aircraft (which they had for about at least 30 years). They are being replaced with UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles = drones). In fact, even the designation "Airlift" is being dropped from the unit's designation, thus it will now be called simply the 118th Wing.

If the use of drones by the military is not going to be for domestic purposes, why is a reserve component of the USAF (nominally under the command of Tennesssee's Military Department) going to be using them?

2 things:

First, no one said that drones wouldn't be used, or even used domestically. I said that they won't be used for mass surveillance. I can easily demonstrate why they wouldn't. So, if anyone has a secret clearance and can contact me via a secure network, I'll gladly explain to you.

Second, there is no reason why a unit can't train in the states for something they'd use in combat. If they dropped the "Airlift" from their name, it implies to me that they would be part of SigInt now. There is nothing wrong with a unit procuring equipment stateside that they will use while deployed. You don't have a problem with the USNG having M16/M4s do you? Same thing.

 

[ktn4eg]

Woody,
Ever hear of the term "mission creep"?

Why assign them to stateside reserve component if they're only really going to be used overseas?

Your comparison of being trained in using individual firearms training is comparing apples and oranges.

It's one thing to have, say, a maintenance man trained in the proper use of his hand tools that he may use on his daily job (a better comparison in my book), but it's quite another thing to have an entire, basically civilian, stateside unit (a wing in the USAF might be comparable to a brigade or larger Army element) operating aerial platforms whose cost no one really knows for sure along with their associated maintenance and support personnel and equipment seems rather cost prohibitive to me, especially in these times of rather drastic cuts in the DOD's budget.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Woody,
Ever hear of the term "mission creep"?

Honestly, no. I had to Google it. Learned something new today.

Why assign them to stateside reserve component if they're only really going to be used overseas?

Your comparison of being trained in using individual firearms training is comparing apples and oranges.

I don't see it as apples and oranges. You train as you fight. If you are going to use equipment overseas, you had better be trained on it here (and by 'here', I mean stateside; to avoid any ambiguity for those of you who know I'm deployed right now).

For those of you who don't know, there are two types of eqipment, TPE and ORG. TPE stands for "Theater Provided Equipment", and it is equipment that you get assigned overseas, and then pass it along to your replacements. ORG is simply short for organizational. It's gear that you have in the states, bring with you, and take home with you. In my engineer company, our mine detectors and a lot of our comms equipment is ORG. I don't see this as any different. You train on the equipment, and know your individual equipment. Then you take this equipment to theater with you. I know as an engineer, I don't want to fall in on some second hand equipment that I have to learn in country.

It's one thing to have, say, a maintenance man trained in the proper use of his hand tools that he may use on his daily job (a better comparison in my book), but it's quite another thing to have an entire, basically civilian, stateside unit (a wing in the USAF might be comparable to a brigade or larger Army element) operating aerial platforms whose cost no one really knows for sure along with their associated maintenance and support personnel and equipment seems rather cost prohibitive to me, especially in these times of rather drastic cuts in the DOD's budget.

The cost prohibitive part is one of the reasons I am saying that they won't be used like people are saying they are going to be. Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the government, and saying that they don't want to keep tabs on people (on the other hand, I am not saying that they do, either). I am just trying to talk facts (unfortunately, I can't post many of these facts on the internet) about this one instance, and say that this almost assuredly won't happen like people are saying.

On a second thought, giving them the equipment might not be as cost prohibitive as you are thinking, with all the drawdowns in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have no clue how many UAVs are in operation in theater, and how many are being decommissioned in theater. I can't say with a certainty without knowing more, but it's possible that they are getting gear already bought and paid for that is not needed overseas right now.