Tasted death for every man !

[The Biblicist]

Personally I think the last statement was a dig at the Pharisees.
Otherwise I agree with you.

Well, I think it fits everyone with a mindset of the pharisee. No man can be saved from sin until they first see themselves as a sinner in need of a Savior. I think we agree on this.

 

[DHK]

Well, I think it fits everyone with a mindset of the pharisee. No man can be saved from sin until they first see themselves as a sinner in need of a Savior. I think we agree on this.

Yes, I think we do.

 

[savedbymercy]

John 12:32 is True ! cont



Thats who Christ's means when He says He will draw all to Him if He be lifted up, His Seed, from among the jews and gentiles. Also what He means here Jn 12:26

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Now who are those that serve Him ? Its His Seed Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

They because He was Lifted up, shall serve Him and Follow Him. The only ones who hate their lives in this world as Per Jn 12:25 are those who have been born again of incorruptible seed. The Natural Man cannot but Love his own life, over the life of God which he is alienated from, for yielding to the serpents temptation proved that and so the fall. For eve was captured by the three things that constitutes love of self and the world 1 Jn 2:15-17, which are

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

These things were present in eve at the time of her temptation see Gen 3:6- For she saw that the Tree was good for food [lust of the flesh], the Lust of the eyes [ The Tree was pleasent to the eyes], and the Pride of Life [desired to be wiser than what God made her], and all this proves that the Natural man even before the fall, that the Love of God was not in us ! But alas, the proud freewillers and God haters, do believe man has the freewill ability to do what God requires for discipleship Jn 12:25 and gain for themselves Eternal Life. These duped people in their devilish pride and conceit, claim to do what even a created Innocent and very good Adam and Eve could not do. If only they had been there with Adam and Eve in the beginning, they could have been to them a good example of how to deny themselves, how to hate their own lives and to serve God and to continue to follow Him ! But thanks be to God, those who are Created anew because of Christ being Lifted up, those men born out of incorrptible seed, shall serve Him and follow Him forever !

 

[Yeshua1]

ONLY seed that the Bible knows is the seed of Abraham, and that was Christ!

For all nations/peoples of the earth blessed by THAT seed, as paul said, seed dingular, NOT plurel!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The argument over the extent of the atonement is not determined by your argument at all. The scriptures gives many ways a person can know that Christ died for them.

1. The way the gospel came to them - 1 Thes. 1:4-5
2. Change - before and after - 2 Cor. 5:17/Rom. 8:7
3. The characteristics of Biblical repentance and faith
4. Internal witness of the Spirit - Rom. 8:14,16
5. Things that accompany salvation - Heb. 6:9

These are subjective....all of them. They amount ultimately to "I know because I feel" "I KNOW"...from some internal witness. Charismatics "Know" a lot of things because of some internal witness of the Holy Spirit.

What a Calvinist can establish (as far as assurance goes) is only a high degree of probability....a very high degree of probability indeed, but they do not know they are "elect" inescapably. These are things which can indeed be pointed to by those who will cry "Lord, Lord"....but then Chist will say "depart for I never knew you". Calvinist doctrine teaches that God "knows" his elect of God's own mysterious will and purpose, and that Christ came to secure the Salvation of them and them alone. A Calvinist cannot point to I John 5, and claim that they "Know" (not deductively, or inescapably) that they are "elect" because they have fulfilled a condition..to wit: they have believed and confessed....Salvation and the atonement are applied in Calvinist thought unconditionally.

A Calvinist can mount a strong cummulative case for their own election by pointing to internal witness of the Spirit and loving one another and works and all of the "signs" which accompany Salvation...so can (presumably) those whom Christ said "depart from me for I never knew you"....But they cannot point to the condition of having placed faith in Christ and repented of sin and turned towards him.

That is the case Winman is making, and he is absolutely correct. You cannot "know" that You Personally were "known" of Christ, and that you were one of the "elect" for whom he died....that is something which is vis-a-vis Calvinism, a mystery exclusive to God's own will and purpose. You can only make an inductive argument based upon probability.

Accept that it is a draw-back to Calvinist theology (it is not a slam-dunk one which disproves it though)...so what?...there are draw-backs to all Systems of thought. It is when one is personally capable of owning the weaknesses in their own Theology that they can test it and know its strengths and learn more. One cannot Grow, unless they are willing to own the short-comings in their own system of belief.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

ONLY seed that the Bible knows is the seed of Abraham, and that was Christ!

For all nations/peoples of the earth blessed by THAT seed, as paul said, seed dingular, NOT plurel!

That and the seed of the Serpent, the seed of the wicked one...see Gen. 3: 15 and Matt 13:38...But they are not a physical seed as is Christ, the "seed of the woman".

 

[The Biblicist]

These are subjective....all of them. They amount ultimately to "I know because I feel" "I KNOW"...from some internal witness.

A changed life is not a feeling! It is the difference between an old creature and a new creation in Christ in true holiness and righteousness - a new man! That is the effect of the gospel when it comes in power and in the Spirit. Look at the remainder of 1 Thess. 1:5 as it points out a different kind of man not miracles, signs and wonders.

Charismatics "Know" a lot of things because of some internal witness of the Holy Spirit.

Their knowledge is not Biblical based whereas the knowledge the Bible speaks of is Biblical based. Their experiential knowlegdge VIOLATES and CONTRADICTS the word of God and that is the difference between "LYING wonders" and Biblical salvation which has to do with NEW BIRTH - CHANGE OF INTERNAL NATURE not external miracles signs and wonder.

What a Calvinist can establish (as far as assurance goes) is only a high degree of probability....a very high degree of probability indeed, but they do not know they are "elect" inescapably.

Paul disagree with you - "BEING CONFIDENT" is his introduction to personal assurance of salvation (Philip. 1:6) due to the gospel of Christ (No miracles signs and wonders even mentioned in Philippians chapter one with the gospel).

Paul diagrees with you as the very term "assurance" is stated in regard to the Gospel change of character in 1 Thes. 1:4-5.

These are things which can indeed be pointed to by those who will cry "Lord, Lord"....but then Chist will say "depart for I never knew you".

They merged "Lord, Lord" with "have we not done...." as the FOUNDATION of their hope of entrance into heaven. The difference between these miracle working professors is the FOUNDATION upon which their house was built. Christ and his work versus the sand or MIXTURE of works and faith!

Doing the revealed will of the Father in order to enter heaven is spelled out in clear words in Matthew 5:20 and the righteousness necessary to exceed the Pharisees to enter heaven is spelled out in Matthew 5:48 - "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect" - WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT KIND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS? Not from YOUR good works that is for sure.

Calvinist doctrine teaches that God "knows" his elect of God's own mysterious will and purpose, and that Christ came to secure the Salvation of them and them alone. A Calvinist cannot point to I John 5, and claim that they "Know" (not deductively, or inescapably) that they are "elect" because they have fulfilled a condition..to wit: they have believed and confessed....Salvation and the atonement are applied in Calvinist thought unconditionally.

What Calvinists are you talking about? Jesus told those in Matthew 7:23 that he "NEVER knew" them not that he knew them once and then didn't know them thereafter. He is not talking about prescience because he knows all mankind thoroughly. He is not talkiing about omniscience because he knows all mankind that way. He is talking about God's eternal purpose of salvation or the elect - Rom. 8:28-32 where EVERY SINGLE ONE He foreknew "according to His purpose" (v. 28) is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ and EVERY SINGLE ONE predestinated is called, justified and glorified - what can you say about that (v. 31)? I will tell you what you will say - you don't believe it!

But they cannot point to the condition of having placed faith in Christ and repented of sin and turned towards him

What kind of Calvinist are you speaking of? Biblical Calvinist believe the MEANS of salvation is elected as much as the persons of salvation or have you never read 2 Thessalonians 2:13????

13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

They were chosen TO salvation not BECAUSE OF salvation.

They were chosen THROUGH santification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth not without it!

God called them "by our gospel TO the obtaining of the glory" not WITHOUT or APART from it.

You may be speaking of HYPER-Calvinism.

That is the case Winman is making, and he is absolutely correct. You cannot "know" that You Personally were "known" of Christ, and that you were one of the "elect" for whom he died....that is vis-a-vis Calvinism a mystery exclusive to God's own will and purpose. You can only make a deductive argument based upon probability.

Paul says you can and he says it clearly "KNOWING.....YOUR ELECTION OF GOD" and then says how you can know it - 1 Thes. 1:4-5. I will side with Paul.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

A changed life is not a feeling! It is the difference between an old creature and a new creation in Christ in true holiness and righteousness - a new man! That is the effect of the gospel when it comes in power and in the Spirit. Look at the remainder of 1 Thess. 1:5 as it points out a different kind of man not miracles, signs and wonders.

Yes....and the knowledge that you are a "changed man" is a subjective one to which Mahatma Ghandi can point....That is what is being argued, no one is denying your cummulative case for probable evidence of Salvation...But you simply cannot demonstrate or prove to yourself (except by personal testimony) that you were "chosen" or "elect" before the foundation of the World...You don't KNOW that Christ died for you, you believe that one can have evidence of it by the "changed life" of which you speak....Ghandi had a "changed life". So did Siddhartha Gautama.

Their knowledge is not Biblical based whereas the knowledge the Bible speaks of is Biblical based. Their experiential knowlegdge VIOLATES and CONTRADICTS the word of God and that is the difference between "LYING wonders" and Biblical salvation which has to do with NEW BIRTH - CHANGE OF INTERNAL NATURE not external miracles signs and wonder.

But it is subjective...as is any argument that you can concievably make to demonstrate that you are one of the "elect" or that (more precisely) God had you personally in mind when he died for sin.

Paul disagree with you - "BEING CONFIDENT" is his introduction to personal assurance of salvation (Philip. 1:6) due to the gospel of Christ (No miracles signs and wonders even mentioned in Philippians chapter one with the gospel).

He does not

Paul diagrees with you as the very term "assurance" is stated in regard to the Gospel change of character in 1 Thes. 1:4-5.

He does not....this is weak argumentation...I could build my case by saying the Apostle John disagrees with YOU, but I attempt not to make such flacid statements as a rule.

They merged "Lord, Lord" with "have we not done...."

As would you, I am not saying you would rely upon works....but as evidence of your election. That is all you would have

as the FOUNDATION of their hope of entrance into heaven. The difference between these miracle working professors is the FOUNDATION upon which their house was built. Christ and his work versus the sand or MIXTURE of works and faith!

Agreed.....They relied (we can probably assume) upon works....You rely upon Christ's finished work upon the cross....but your evidence of it is based upon the internal witness of the Spirit (subjective) works (subjective) and a changed life (subjective).

Doing the revealed will of the Father in order to enter heaven is spelled out in clear words in Matthew 5:20 and the righteousness necessary to exceed the Pharisees to enter heaven is spelled out in Matthew 5:48 - "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect" - WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT KIND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS? Not from YOUR good works that is for sure.

You cannot positively identify which works of righteousness are a proof positive...you can create a cummulative case for an inductive probability....I have already explained that....You cannot deduce, however, that you have met a certain set of conditions by which you can deductively "KNOW" (inescapably) that you were one of the elect.

What Calvinists are you talking about? Jesus told those in Matthew 7:23 that he "NEVER knew" them not that he knew them once and then didn't know them thereafter

.

All of them.....I am not claiming what you assume I am claiming....Who said anything whatsoever, at any point about "knowing them once, and then not knowing them thereafter"....Oh, you have....as I can quote you saying such a thing, and you cannot quote me saying such a thing....You are attacking a straw-man.

He is not talking about prescience because he knows all mankind thoroughly. He is not talkiing about omniscience because he knows all mankind that way.

I know....when did I argue that he was?....Scare-crow no.2 just bit the dust...You are on a roll. Go Get 'EM!!!!

He is talking about God's eternal purpose of salvation or the elect - Rom. 8:28-32 where EVERY SINGLE ONE He foreknew "according to His purpose" (v. 28) is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ and EVERY SINGLE ONE predestinated is called, justified and glorified - what can you say about that (v. 31)?

To answer your question"

"what can you say about that?"

The answer is, I know, and agree with what you stated here completely.

I will tell you what you will say - you don't believe it!

Not quite....Try again. That is a vicious slander, and an assumption....Are these the works of righteousness to which you would appeal in order to have full faith in your election and to make your calling sure?

What kind of Calvinist are you speaking of? Biblical Calvinist believe the MEANS of salvation is elected as much as the persons of salvation or have you never read 2 Thessalonians 2:13????

13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

They were chosen TO salvation not BECAUSE OF salvation.

They were chosen THROUGH santification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth not without it!

God called them "by our gospel TO the obtaining of the glory" not WITHOUT or APART from it.

This does not in any way adress what my post was trying to convey...not at all,

You may be speaking of HYPER-Calvinism.

No, Hyper-Calvinism is the logically consistent form of Calvinism, therefore....I rarely debate with them about it.

Paul says you can and he says it clearly "KNOWING.....YOUR ELECTION OF GOD" and then says how you can know it - 1 Thes. 1:4-5. I will side with Paul.

You do not side with "Paul" against any windmill that you are assaulting....Paul, BTW is testifying to how HE HIMSELF is sure of their election.....not establishing parameters by which they might...read it again...Read vs, 1-3 first... You have just miss-applied Paul...Paul does not side with you on your interpretation here.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes....and the knowledge that you are a "changed man" is a subjective one to which Mahatma Ghandi can point....That is what is being argued, no one is denying your cummulative case for probable evidence of Salvation...But you simply cannot demonstrate or prove to yourself (except by personal testimony) that you were "chosen" or "elect" before the foundation of the World...You don't KNOW that Christ died for you, you believe that one can have evidence of it by the "changed life" of which you speak....Ghandi had a "changed life". So did Siddhartha Gautama.

You are missing the point completely! Ghandi's change is not BIBLE BASED nor CONFIRMED by the Scriptures.

Your argument depends solely upon isolation of experiential knowlege from Biblical confirmation of that knowledge. Granted, if you isolate experiential knowlege from a bible basis then no professed Christian can have assurance about anything whether it is miraculous experience or non-miraculous experience as Satan can provides miraculous experiences.

However, the response to your rationale is Isaiah 8:19-20 - "speak not according to THIS WORD it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM."

My whole line of argumentation is admittedly BIBLICAL BASED and BIBLICALLY CONFIRMED. Hence, your whole line of attack is simply invalidated and void!

Agreed.....They relyed upon works....You rely upon Christ's finished work upon the cross....but your evidence of it is based upon the internal witness of the Spirit (subjective) works (subjective) and a changed life (subjective).

Your statement is oxymoronic! You agree about Christ finished works only because it is BIBLICALLY BASED knowlege, however, you reject my "evidence" when it also is BIBLICALL BASED knowlege and not merely subjective or speculative in nature. Ghandi's subjective experience is not BIBLICAL BASED KNOWLEGE. The point is that my experience is AFFIRMED Biblically just as Christ's death on the cross as a finished work is AFFIRMED Biblically.

This is the archilles heel of every arugment you make in this post. You are ignoring that the experiential knowledge I present is also AFFIRMED BIBLICALLY and it is that JOINT condition that distinguishes it from the experiential knowledge of Ghandi or Charismatics.

 

[The Biblicist]

This does not in any way adress what my post was trying to convey...not at all,

Are you joking???? 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 clearly and explicitly states the means of salvation is as chosen as the persons of salvation. It does address your objection that my position does not include repentance and faith in regard to election "TO" salvation.

You do not side with "Paul" against any windmill that you are assaulting....Paul, BTW is testifying to how HE HIMSELF is sure of their election.....not establishing parameters by which they might...read it again...Read vs, 1-3 first... You have just miss-applied Paul...Paul does not side with you on your interpretation here.

So, there are perameters that Paul can know they are the elect but no one else can use the same perameters he REVEALS to them for his basis of knowing their election? How oxymoronic is that kind of rationale? You are really hard up for a response here?????? If Paul knows their elect by this criteria and reveals the criteria to them upon which his knowlege of their election is based then do you really believe that this criteria is reserved for Paul alone to them alone and not for other readers of this epistle then as well as now??? If you are that hard pressed to escape the obvious - ok!

 

[Yeshua1]

That and the seed of the Serpent, the seed of the wicked one...see Gen. 3: 15 and Matt 13:38...But they are not a physical seed as is Christ, the "seed of the woman".

What are those 2 other 'seeds?"

 

[The Biblicist]

You are missing the point completely! Ghandi's change is not BIBLE BASED nor CONFIRMED by the Scriptures.

Your argument depends solely upon isolation of experiential knowlege from Biblical confirmation of that knowledge. Granted, if you isolate experiential knowlege from a bible basis then no professed Christian can have assurance about anything whether it is miraculous experience or non-miraculous experience as Satan can provides miraculous experiences.

However, the response to your rationale is Isaiah 8:19-20 - "speak not according to THIS WORD it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM."

My whole line of argumentation is admittedly BIBLICAL BASED and BIBLICALLY CONFIRMED. Hence, your whole line of attack is simply invalidated and void!








Your statement is oxymoronic! You agree about Christ finished works only because it is BIBLICALLY BASED knowlege, however, you reject my "evidence" when it also is BIBLICALL BASED knowlege and not merely subjective or speculative in nature. Ghandi's subjective experience is not BIBLICAL BASED KNOWLEGE. The point is that my experience is AFFIRMED Biblically just as Christ's death on the cross as a finished work is AFFIRMED Biblically.

This is the archilles heel of every arugment you make in this post. You are ignoring that the experiential knowledge I present is also AFFIRMED BIBLICALLY and it is that JOINT condition that distinguishes it from the experiential knowledge of Ghandi or Charismatics.

Experiential knowledge isolated from any objective basis can neither be proved or disproved.

If the Scriptures are considered an objective basis for right and wrong both theoretically and experientially then any experiential or theoretical knowledge can be fully confirmed or denied by the scriptures.

Experiential salvation can be confirmed and denied by the Scriptures - Isa. 8:20

The Scriptures claim that Scriptures are profitable for doctrine and instruction and correction but where does it say experiential knowledge apart from confirmation by scripture is profitable for doctrine, instruction or correction? - 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You are missing the point completely! Ghandi's change is not BIBLE BASED nor CONFIRMED by the Scriptures.

I am not.

Your argument depends solely upon isolation of experiential knowlege and Biblical confirmation of that knowledge.

"The Biblicist" has never read in the Scriptures that he personally, was one of the elect...he is appealing to his belief that he has met the conditions to be properly categorized that way...It is not provable, It is not deductive, it is subjective and it is circumstantial. You have established already and it was never denied that there are those sets of evidences spoken of in Scripture...You didn't have to, as I already knew and never denied it. You have not established that you are a partaker of them....See the difference? Those ARE Biblical evidences....the question is, how does a Calvinist KNOW, that he is properly categorized as having sufficiently met them...The answer: He doesn't.

However, the response to your rationale is Isaiah 8:19-20 - "speak not according to THIS WORD it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM."

You are accusing me of witchcraft somehow??? This exchange has devolved so quickly that one accuses the other of witchcraft? I am now being accused of sorcery, and thus my personal salvation is now in question....I am not sure that this is in keeping with the rules of this board....Please explain this accusation.

My whole line of argumentation is admittedly BIBLICAL BASED and BIBLICALLY CONFIRMED. Hence, your whole line of attack is simply invalidated and void!

Oh, o.k. dismiss it at it's onset so you don't have to engage it? I also like the word "admittedly" As in...."Humbly, I must admit, that my arguments are all straight from the mouth of Almighty God as revealed in his Holy Word..." Yes, I admit it...." :laugh: (Just poking fun here....I do not seriously think you meant it that way, it's just funny )

Your statement is oxymoronic!

It isn't I assure you.

You agree about Christ finished works only because it is BIBLICALLY BASED knowlege,

That is the sole and sufficient reason to do so.

however, you reject my "evidence" when it also is BIBLICALL BASED knowlege and not merely subjective or speculative in nature.

*Sigh*....It is that you can only appeal to it from a subjective point of view which is being argued...not that the evidences themselves are Biblical or not....they are indeed, they are also not being debated. You have posted under the moniker of "The Biblicist" so long, I think, that you have unfortunately begun to believe it....Here's a hint: there is no such being. This, from another adherent of determinist philosopy: http://reformedbaptistfellowship.org/2010/02/17/who-can-argue-against-being-a-biblicist/

Ghandi's subjective experience is not BIBLICAL BASED KNOWLEGE. The point is that my experience is AFFIRMED Biblically just as Christ's death on the cross as a finished work is AFFIRMED Biblically.

His experientially based knowledge is very real....as is yours.

This is the archilles heel of every arugment you make in this post. You are ignoring that the experiential knowledge I present is also AFFIRMED BIBLICALLY

Not in the sense in which you are trying to use it...The Scriptures do not ever say: "Biblicist: the experiential knowledge you have is sufficient, according to these conditions, to affirm your position as one of the elect". There is no such verse...that is the issue.

THAT it serves as EVIDENCE it is indeed Biblical, and it is also not being denied.... by my posts....I have stated that repeatedly. And it indeed serves as an Inductive set of probabilistic evidences....I have indeed already said that, and I have even stated that it can make for a powerful case indeed. See my first post....I tend to think you have not heard of Winman's arguments before...if you have, you simply have not addressed them or mine....

You have no way of "KNOWING" however, not deductively, that You personally were in view with God's election or with the atonement on the cross.....You can only probabalistically assume it. This is a classic non-Cal argument which has existed for ages. And you appear to be merely avoiding it, or not understand the crux of it. An Arminian appeals to having met certain conditions (namely, repentance and faith) to assure themselves of Salvation...you are appealing to evidences of what is assumed to have been a previous act, not of your own will or purpose, but of God's alone....God has not written in his Scriptures who was in view. He has not written in the Scriptures the identity of those whom he "elected". You are taking a set of evidences and believing that you have met the criterion of who would subsequently qualify ex post facto.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

What are those 2 other 'seeds?"

They are not two "others"...they are one and the same....and they are not understood in precisely the same sense as the "seed of the woman" (as physical). As Christ is whom you mentioned. They refer to all of the children of the devil...Their "Father". It also possibly refers to the anti-Christ, (secondarily) but I have insufficient knowledge myself to claim that.

 

[Yeshua1]

the sure sign to a calvinist that one has been saved, is one of the so called elect is that one has received jesus, placed faith in him, having a new nature, confirmed by inner witness of the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the Word!

IF one is not saved, one could care less about the real jesus and real gospel!

called having a fallen nature!

 

[The Biblicist]

"The Biblicist" has never read in the Scriptures that he personally, was one of the elect...he is appealing to his belief that he has met the conditions to be properly categorized that way...It is not provable, It is not deductive, it is subjective and it is circumstantial.

Deductive reasoning demands the conclusions are true if the premises are true. The premises are true because the Bible declares them to be true. Hence, the issue is not a matter of debate but a matter of faith or disbelief! Which is it for you?

Furthermore, the Bible tells us HOW we can know experientially it is true as individuals. Therefore every child of God can EXPERIENTIALLY KNOW they are saved/elect because the Bible tells HOW it can be known. Hence, the issue of HOW TO KNOW experientially is not a matter of debate but a matter of faith and disbelief! Which is it for you?

Now, in regard to my own person, the Bible provides the absolute objective evidence that all children of God can know they are saved and how they can experientially know it.

I claim to be a child of God. I claim to be an elect. The Bible furnished me with the objective evidence how this can be confirmed both theoretically and experientially in me, as in any reader of these epistles during the days of the apostles.

Does my personal experience MATCH the THEORETICAL and EXPERIENTIAL characteristics the Bible provides TO KNOW I am a child of God and an elect of God?

If so, the shoe fits and if not then the shoe does not fit. I can know and others can know by simply applying the Biblical absolutes to my profession/doctrine/life. Again, this is not an issue of debate, but a matter of faith or unbelief with me? Which is it? It is a matter of faith without the slightest doubt because my faith has for its object the revealed Word of God on this subject both to the theoretical and experiential.


Inductive reasoning says if the premise is true then it is probably true of any person fitting that premise. However, inductive reasoning does not demand the premise is true or can prove the premise is true. Inductive reasoning includes DOUBT in regard to both the premise and the application or conclusion.

DOUBT is only resolved by FAITH. I personally BELIEVE God's Word and therefore I have NO PERSONAL DOUBTS that my experience fits the Biblical premise for knowing THEORETICALLY and EXPERIENTIALLY I am God's elect and saved because I have compared both my THEORETICAL and EXPERIENTIAL to God's Word and affirmed it.

 

[The Biblicist]

Deductive reasoning demands the conclusions are true if the premises are true. The premises are true because the Bible declares them to be true. Hence, the issue is not a matter of debate but a matter of faith or disbelief! Which is it for you?

Furthermore, the Bible tells us HOW we can know experientially it is true as individuals. Therefore every child of God can EXPERIENTIALLY KNOW they are saved/elect because the Bible tells HOW it can be known. Hence, the issue of HOW TO KNOW experientially is not a matter of debate but a matter of faith and disbelief! Which is it for you?

Now, in regard to my own person, the Bible provides the absolute objective evidence that all children of God can know they are saved and how they can experientially know it.

I claim to be a child of God. I claim to be an elect. The Bible furnished me with the objective evidence how this can be confirmed both theoretically and experientially in me, as in any reader of these epistles during the days of the apostles.

Does my personal experience MATCH the THEORETICAL and EXPERIENTIAL characteristics the Bible provides TO KNOW I am a child of God and an elect of God?

If so, the shoe fits and if not then the shoe does not fit. I can know and others can know by simply applying the Biblical absolutes to my profession/doctrine/life. Again, this is not an issue of debate, but a matter of faith or unbelief with me? Which is it? It is a matter of faith without the slightest doubt because my faith has for its object the revealed Word of God on this subject both to the theoretical and experiential.


Inductive reasoning says if the premise is true then it is probably true of any person fitting that premise. However, inductive reasoning does not demand the premise is true or can prove the premise is true. Inductive reasoning includes DOUBT in regard to both the premise and the application or conclusion.

DOUBT is only resolved by FAITH. I personally BELIEVE God's Word and therefore I have NO PERSONAL DOUBTS that my experience fits the Biblical premise for knowing THEORETICALLY and EXPERIENTIALLY I am God's elect and saved because I have compared both my THEORETICAL and EXPERIENTIAL to God's Word and affirmed it.

You will no doubt reply that my affirming it does not make it so as your denying it does not make it less than fact UNLESS you can show that my profession and experience does not match the theoretical and experiential revelation of salvation in God's Word.

Other than that, That is why faith is a GIFT of God that affirms the truth of God's Word to the individual experience as "faith" is another characteristic of "how" one can know = assurance (Jn. 6:64-65; "except it were given to him"; 1 Thes. 1:5 "in much assurance").

The same requirement to accept the revelation of Christ's finished work on the cross is the same requirement to know you are a child of God - faith in God's Word.

 

[The Biblicist]

You will no doubt reply that my affirming it does not make it so as your denying it does not make it less than fact UNLESS you can show that my profession and experience does not match the theoretical and experiential revelation of salvation in God's Word.

Other than that, That is why faith is a GIFT of God that affirms the truth of God's Word to the individual experience as "faith" is another characteristic of "how" one can know = assurance (Jn. 6:64-65; "except it were given to him"; 1 Thes. 1:5 "in much assurance").

The same requirement to accept the revelation of Christ's finished work on the cross is the same requirement to know you are a child of God - faith in God's Word.

Lets cut this to the chase! You are philosophically arguing that the Bible is a lie! The Bible explicitly and clearly says a person can know they have eternal life and are saved (1 Jn. 5:13) but you are philosophically arguing they cannot know that because such knowledge is subjective and inductive and therefore cannot be known for sure to anyone. Thus you are calling God's Word a lie!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

WOW!!!!! Biblicist...listen to yourself...You just posed your own argument....literally, your own personal argument here:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist

You will no doubt reply that my affirming it does not make it so as your denying it does not make it less than fact UNLESS you can show that my profession and experience does not match the theoretical and experiential revelation of salvation in God's Word.

Other than that, That is why faith is a GIFT of God that affirms the truth of God's Word to the individual experience as "faith" is another characteristic of "how" one can know = assurance (Jn. 6:64-65; "except it were given to him"; 1 Thes. 1:5 "in much assurance").

The same requirement to accept the revelation of Christ's finished work on the cross is the same requirement to know you are a child of God - faith in God's Word.

And then you somehow ascribed it to ME, and then used it to attack anthing I might say...Here:

The Biblicist

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist

You will no doubt reply that my affirming it does not make it so as your denying it does not make it less than fact UNLESS you can show that my profession and experience does not match the theoretical and experiential revelation of salvation in God's Word.

Other than that, That is why faith is a GIFT of God that affirms the truth of God's Word to the individual experience as "faith" is another characteristic of "how" one can know = assurance (Jn. 6:64-65; "except it were given to him"; 1 Thes. 1:5 "in much assurance").

The same requirement to accept the revelation of Christ's finished work on the cross is the same requirement to know you are a child of God - faith in God's Word.

Lets cut this to the chase! You are philosophically arguing that the Bible is a lie! The Bible explicitly and clearly says a person can know they have eternal life and are saved (1 Jn. 5:13) but you are philosophically arguing they cannot know that because such knowledge is subjective and inductive and therefore cannot be known for sure to anyone. Thus you are calling God's Word a lie!

This is done for the sole purpose of calling me a liar...as you do here....

Thus you are calling God's Word a lie!

You are philosophically arguing that the Bible is a lie!

Ever heard of Strawman argumentation??? This is literally the most priceless version I have ever seen in my life... You posted some ridiculous and unintelligible stuff and said

"You will no doubt say...."

and then you attacked it....and called it a lie....But you are acting as though I said it....This is utterly unreal. I can archive and quote these statements by you....and you will never quote me as having said them....You do this in order to specifically accuse me of denying Bible Truth....This will be a fun set of quotes to create a thread about....I am thinking General Baptist Discussions......You know, just to educate about Straw-men....I did not know that you would be so easily flustered...You have obviously been obfuscating against SBM so long, you have forgotten that sane arguments are sometimes levelled which disagree with you as well.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You should have simply waited for me to respond to your previous post, wherein I would simply have said that I generally agree with your conclusion and that that was basically all I was contending to begin with....But, no....the Straw man....This will be posted....repeatedly.

You have accused me of Witchcraft, and denying Bible Truth....No one has yet shown such umbrage before for no reason whatsoever. Examine yourself.