TD Jakes

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Multimom:
I did a short search, here are the statements of faith regarding God from 4 promenant Baptist Churches.

Their wording is slightly different but not doctrinally different from that of the Potter's House.

Actually, they're very different.

Houston?s First Baptist Church:
II. God
There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

Notice that they belive that God is "triune" with "distinct personal attributes".

FBC Dallas
Theirs was the same but because it is in Adobe Acrobat Reader, I could not copy and paste it here.

Please see above.

Second Baptist Church Houston:
There is one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who subsist in unity, and also as three separate, distinct Persons.

Again, three seperate, distinct persons.

First Baptist Church - Atlanta GA
The Triune Godhead
We believe in the one true and living God, the Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer and Ruler of all things. He is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, and is revealed to us as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Right. The key words being The Triune Godhead

So then, we can clearly see that these churches are, in fact, very much doctrinally different from the Potter's house and T.D. Jakes.

BTW, just because he is perceived to be "penticostal" by the local community does not deter the fact that his church lists and pretty much adheres to the Non-denominational philosophy and doctrines.

There are plenty of non-denominational churches that are penecostal. I don't understand your point.

Also, since non-denominational churches are, by definition, autonomous, why do imply that there is one "non-denominational philosophy and doctrines"? There are plenty of non-denominational churches that are heretical. Are these the philosopies his church adheres to?

Or is someone still under the mis-conception that all Full Gospel believers are "oneness" in theology?

I haven't heard anyone here imply that.

[ August 16, 2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Multimom]

Smoke-eater: To answer all of your questions I would have had to print out your post and answer one by one.

Now as for sites that debunk the Baptist Doctrine check out this link.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6712/Baptist.pdf

Please understand that I don't agree with what is printed here, but it is available with according to them "scriptural evidence to back it up."

You made the comment that your church was doing its best at what God called it to do.

Does you church then deny the "Great Commission" Last time I went to a Baptist church (please remember that I was a 30 year baptist and that my dad is still a Baptist preacher)it was still a promenant part of their teachings.

If your church not commanded to "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel."

Look guys my point is that we spend so much time trying to debunk something we disagree with that we fail to find God's real design. Winning people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Dr. Jakes is n't leading people down a path of distruction any more than our early Baptist Founding fathers did and if you do a search you will find tons of "poor doctrine and gross misinformation".

Please correct me if I am wrong but I am assuming that the person who was concerened about him, and attended only to silence his wife was a Baptist.

Except for the fact that I believe in the "manifestation of spiritual gifts." my doctrine remains essentially Baptist. My father doesn't sit around and bliss me out for accepting a doctrine that he disagrees with.

I'm not going to continue this because I know that the turn I helped to take this topic will only end in more division and disagreement. To continue this would in my opinion be unprofitable.

We have become a people who may speak the truth, but we certainly don't do it in love anymore.

You know Dr. Stanley is certainly a man worthy of respect even though he has unfortunately been party to the Baptist ideal of the unforgiveable sin (divorce). He is a man seeking to do what God called him to do and he is making every effort to do it well.

I believe the same is true of TD Jakes. And as I am not God, its not my appointed job (or I believe anyone elses) to walk around telling people they are in error. I need to do some more study this has wearied me and my frustration is not worth this effort.

I would also suggest going to the "horses mouth" so to speak. Actually read Dr. Jakes material completely and in context instead of taking your "information" from another opinionated source. I have read a great deal of Dr. Jakes books and frankly what he teaches there lines up with the Bible and in most cases is pretty congruent to Baptist doctrine.

[ August 16, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Multimom:
Smoke-eater: To answer all of your questions I would have had to print out your post and answer one by one.

No you don't. You're just stalling.

C'mon, they're not difficult questions at all.

Heck, some of them are simple "yes" or "no" answers.

Now as for sites that debunk the Baptist Doctrine check out this link.

In the words of Ronald Reagan, "There is no 'there' there" (both literaly and figuratively).

You made the comment that your church was doing its best at what God called it to do.

Does you church then deny the "Great Commission" Last time I went to a Baptist church (please remember that I was a 30 year baptist and that my dad is still a Baptist preacher) it was still a promenant part of their teachings.

If your church not commanded to "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel."

Actually, we're very much involved in evangelism and discipleship.

We're just not called to turn our church into a multi million dollar business the way Jakes has.

Look guys my point is that we spend so much time trying to debunk something we disagree with that we fail to find God's real design. Winning people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I've said many, many times on BaptistBoard that I believe Christians should spend more time trying to find the things that unite us rather than divide us but when it comes to a preacher teaching a perverted view of such an essential doctrine as the nature of God, all bets are off.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I am assuming that the person who was concerened about him, and attended only to silence his wife was a Baptist.

First of all, I don't think the point was to "silence his wife".

I think he was genuinely concerned about the direction his wife is headed in the things she believes and the preachers she listens to.

I would be disappointed in him if he wasn't.

In addition, there are many people from a wide variety of denominations (and non-denominations) who have expressed concern about what Jakes teaches so, believe me, this isn't just a "Baptist" thing.

Except for the fact that I believe in the "manifestation of spiritual gifts." my doctrine remains essentially Baptist.

That remains to be seen. You still haven't answered my questions about what you believe.

My father doesn't sit around and bliss me out for accepting a doctrine that he disagrees with.

If it's a non-essential, then I think he's being very wise.

However, if it's an essential, such as the nature of God, I think he's being negligent.

I'm not going to continue this because I know that the turn I helped to take this topic will only end in more division and disagreement. To continue this would in my opinion be unprofitable.

So, in other words, you've conceded that you can't answer my questions?

You know Dr. Stanley is certainly a man worthy of respect even though he has unfortunately been party to the Baptist ideal of the unforgiveable sin (divorce). He is a man seeking to do what God called him to do and he is making every effort to do it well.

Actually, as I understand it, his wife left him and he sought reconciliation.

I believe the same is true of TD Jakes. And as I am not God, its not my appointed job (or I believe anyone elses) to walk around telling people they are in error

.

(Sorry I accidentally erased part of that post but I think the way I worded it is accurate. Please let me know if it isn't.)

We are commanded several times to compare what a teacher says to what scripture says. In fact, the Bereans were commended for it.

Furthermore, we are commanded in principle, if not in fact, to stand up to stand up to false teachers.

Also, as I've asked you twice before but you haven't been able to answer, do you think that Paul was out of line in doing this? (Having asked you this twice without courtesy of an answer, I realize that this question is probably rhetorical.)

I would also suggest going to the "horses mouth" so to speak. Actually read Dr. Jakes material completely and in context instead of taking your "information" from another opinionated source.

We've provided several links to Jakes' own website. How much more to the horse mouth can you get?

I have read a great deal of Dr. Jakes books and frankly what he teaches there lines up with the Bible and in most cases is pretty congruent to Baptist doctrine.

Wait a second. In an earlier post, you said that you didn't agree with everything he said.

In fact, you said:

I have tested much of what I have heard from Dr. Jakes and, frankly, I'm not sure I agree with everything he says.

If what he teaches "lines up with the Bible", why do you disagree?

[ August 16, 2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Kiffin]

The problem with Jakes church is that on the doctrine of the Trinity it says three "manifestations". That is classic Modalism as Smokeater states. The Baptist websites you mentioned are careful to point out that the three members of the Godhead are three persons NOT three manifestations. Jakes has been confronted with this before but is slipperly on the issue. Jakes is either a Modalist (which means he is a heretic and Trinitarian Charismatics should distance themselves from him) or he is ignorant on explaining the Trinity (which means he needs to hire someone to give him a Christian education)

 

[Multimom]

Lets settle my doctrine quickly.

1. I believe in God and in the triune Godhead which is represented in the 3 persons of the Godhead.
a. The Father
b. The Son
C. The Holy Spirit

2. I believe that Jesus is the son of God, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified under pontius pilot, was buried and bodily resurrected. I believe that the Holy Spirit is our confortor and our teacher and that his manifestations are still active today and available for today's believer.

3. I believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired and inerrant word of God.

4. I believe in salvation by faith and trust in God.

5. I believe that Communion is an act for believers and that there is no divine impartation in participation in that ordinance.

6. I believe that Baptism is an outward expression of an inward experience and should be reserved for those who have made public profession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. and that there is no divine impartation of forgiveness or cleansing in the immersion waters.

7. I believe in the eternal security of the believer as indicated in the writings of Paul the Apostle.

8. I believe in the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation and that it is granted to all believers.

9. I believe in the second baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the overflow of God's annointing power. In which the initial manifestation is normally the speaking of tongues (I do not believe this is always the representation of that manifestation.)

10. I believe in the divine gift of healing by God and I believe in the divine unction of the Holy Spirit to reveal himself and the nature of man to those who will yield themselves to his control.

Now apart from the last few, as you can well see, I'm pretty much conservative in my belief.

May I remind everyone (because of the comment of one more person) not every person who is charismatic is Oneness in theology or doctrine.

Many charismatics believe in the Trinity.
So, in other words, you've conceded that you can't answer my questions?

You have consceided that you can't answer my questions

I have done no such thing, what I have conceided is that you make me tired.

[ August 16, 2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Multimom:
Tell me one Baptist church that has a 45% attendance of men.

My church in Fort Worth... It would be about 50% if men's lifespans were not usually shorter than women's lifespans.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Multimom:
Lets settle my doctrine quickly.

1. I believe in God and in the triune Godhead which is represented in the 3 persons of the Godhead.
a. The Father
b. The Son
C. The Holy Spirit

2. I believe that Jesus is the son of God, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified under pontius pilot, was buried and bodily resurrected. I believe that the Holy Spirit is our confortor and our teacher and that his manifestations are still active today and available for today's believer.

3. I believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired and inerrant word of God.

4. I believe in salvation by faith and trust in God.

5. I believe that Communion is an act for believers and that there is no divine impartation in participation in that ordinance.

6. I believe that Baptism is an outward expression of an inward experience and should be reserved for those who have made public profession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. and that there is no divine impartation of forgiveness or cleansing in the immersion waters.

7. I believe in the eternal security of the believer as indicated in the writings of Paul the Apostle.

8. I believe in the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation and that it is granted to all believers.

9. I believe in the second baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the overflow of God's annointing power. In which the initial manifestation is normally the speaking of tongues (I do not believe this is always the representation of that manifestation.)

10. I believe in the divine gift of healing by God and I believe in the divine unction of the Holy Spirit to reveal himself and the nature of man to those who will yield themselves to his control.

Agree with # 1-8.

#9 is unbiblical but that's a non-essential so I won't hassle you about it.

#10 Are you talking about the doctrine of "perpetual healing"?

Many charismatics believe in the Trinity.

I don't believe anyone here has implied otherwise. Having spent several years in the charismatic movement, I would say more than "many", I would say that the vast majority of charismatics support the Biblical view of the Trinity, but that's another subject for another time.

I have done no such thing, what I have conceided is that you make me tired.

Too tired to say simply, "yes" or "no" or to provide just one Bible verse to back up the things you claim are Biblical?

Wow! That's tired!

[ August 16, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Multimom:

I have read a great deal of Dr. Jakes books and frankly what he teaches there lines up with the Bible and in most cases is pretty congruent to Baptist doctrine.

Wait a second. In an earlier post, you said that you didn't agree with everything he said.

In fact, you said:

I have tested much of what I have heard from Dr. Jakes and, frankly, I'm not sure I agree with everything he says.

If what he teaches "lines up with the Bible", why do you disagree?

[ August 16, 2002, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Multimom]

Too tired to say simply, "yes" or "no" or to provide just one Bible verse to back up the things you claim are Biblical?

Wow! That's tired!

This tickled me. But having 7 kids (6 of my own and one whose mother has given me temporary guardianship of, preparing for school to start Monday and keeping a 2400sqft house clean with that running rampant all day long tends to make one tired.

 

[Multimom]

I have tested much of what I have heard from Dr. Jakes and, frankly, I'm not sure I agree with everything he says.If what he teaches "lines up with the Bible", why do you disagree?

While most of what he writes lines up pretty well, not everything he says when he is speaking lines up.

Does that fix the error. The difference is in the hearing not in the reading.

And with regard to the "oneness", it may not have been blatant, but the reference to Penticostalism (which is definately oneness in theology) is usually brought up in these types of discussions. If you read back a few posts you will find the one comment directing it that way.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Multimom:

While most of what he writes lines up pretty well, not everything he says when he is speaking lines up.

So we've gone from "lines up with scripture" to "most of what he says lines up with scripture" to "not everything he says lines up with scripture"?

Man, his stock's falling faster than Intel.

The bottom line is still that his teaching contradicts scripture. Therefore, he shouldn't be preaching.

Does that fix the error.

No.

The difference is in the hearing not in the reading.

I'm not sure I see the distinction.

And with regard to the "oneness", it may not have been blatant, but the reference to Penticostalism (which is definately oneness in theology) is usually brought up in these types of discussions.

Right, but you didn't say that "Pentecostalism is usuallybrought up in these types of threads", you said that it had been brought up in this thread.

I've looked and I didn't see it. Please explain.

Also, how do you come to the conclusion that "Pentecostalism" is definitely oneness in theology?

As has been explained to you, Pentecostalism is not a monolith and while there are "Oneness Pentecostals, they are in the minority.

If you read back a few posts you will find the one comment directing it that way.

I did and I didn't find any (other than yours).

Now, you've written these two posts, but you're too tired to type "yes" or "no"?

 

[Need 4 Speed]

Matt 7:21- Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.....
v 22-Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

This is the same excuse people use to defend those who teach false doctrine. There is alot in the Bible warning us about false teachers, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing etc. Why do think God did this? Just to say "they are doing great things for God so leave them alone"? I warn my children about the dangers of straying away from me while shopping, to look both ways before crossing the street(even though it is not highly travled), I love them and want them to understand that "when I stay near Daddy I am safe, Daddy always said look both ways before I cross the street"etc. By us having our Heavenly Fathers warnings and choosing to ignore them, we are like that one sheep that chooses to wander off and is attacked by wolves.

 

[Don]

Ah, but Need--part of the problem is laziness on our part. We have this tendency to rely on what the man with the microphone tells us, and take it as what scripture says. We don't have the time to open our bibles and look it up for ourselves. We've got men in the pulpit who say, "Stop taking notes and listen to what I'm saying," instead of saying "You better check everything I say against the Bible and see if I'm telling you exactly what God says." It's too hard to pick up that big ol' book and use our own brains and maybe have to do some word studies and/or research....

 

[Need 4 Speed]

Just like I said earlier. We are more serious over price comparison than checking out these so called "annointed" people of God. Who in their right mind is going to buy a house without first checking for termite damage etc. Multi do some leg work.

 

[Multimom]

(which means he is a heretic and Trinitarian Charismatics should distance themselves from him)

The implication here is that Jakes is "oneness" and while I can't speak to that directly, it is obvious that there are those in both camps.

Those of us who are "full-gospel" and subscribe to the trinity,

And those of us who are oneness.

Carry on without me. School has started and I have other things that require my attention.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Don:
Ah, but Need--part of the problem is laziness on our part. We have this tendency to rely on what the man with the microphone tells us, and take it as what scripture says. We don't have the time to open our bibles and look it up for ourselves. We've got men in the pulpit who say, "Stop taking notes and listen to what I'm saying," instead of saying "You better check everything I say against the Bible and see if I'm telling you exactly what God says." It's too hard to pick up that big ol' book and use our own brains and maybe have to do some word studies and/or research....

I agree with you but even more than laziness, I think it's a simple case of wanted to have our ears tickled.

If you could see some of the things posted on the "theology" and "spiritual life" boards at crosswalk.com, it would send shivers down your spine.

I have seen people who claim to be Christians (and probably are well meaning but completely misguided) defend the most horrible doctrinal teaching because the feel "blessed" by such and such a ministry.

Mike

 

[Mike McK]

multimom,

You told me that you can't answer a couple of simple questions that require nothing more than a "yes" or "no" or just one or two simple verses of scripture because you're tired and then you say you have other things that "require your attention", yet you're not too tired or preoccupied to start one new thread and post to several others.

Hmmm...

Mike

 

[Multimom]

Truth is Mike, I'm simply tired of this discussion. Its like beating your head against the wall. Eventually one of two things happen.

1. You realize it hurts and you aren't moving the wall so you wise up and quit.

2. You keep beating your head until you are either unconcious or dead.

I chose the First.

 

[Mike McK]

OK. I understand that, but if you couldn't answer the questions, it would've been better to just say, "I don't know" or "I admit the Bible doiesn't back up my position" than to tell us one thing and then do another.

Mike

 

[Multimom]

"I don't know" or "I admit the Bible doiesn't back up my position" than to tell us one thing and then do another.

I never said this, or implied it or inferred it. This was simply an assumption on your part. You never once confronted me with a real doctrinal error.

I received a PM from someone who reminded me of something,

Philippians, which has not been addressed on this thread. Look at chapter 1, verse 15-20, if you have the time. If Christ is being preached, then let us rejoice, if not then he should be confronted. Wasn't it James and John that wanted to call down fire upon men who were preaching Christ, but were not of the disciples? Chrsit Jesus said to let them alone; let them minister, too.

Good food for thought when you consider the "ministry" of another.