Ted Haggard - should he ever be allowed to pastor again?

[pinoybaptist]

That had nothing to do with the OP.

If you were referring to my post, then I venture to say it had everything to do with the OP. Your OP's subject line asked if Haggard should ever be allowed to pastor again.

The requirements for a bishop, also called an elder, set in 1 Timothy cover at least 7 verses. Haggard already falls flat on his face in just two parts of the second verse...".....A bishop then must be blameless .......of good behavior........"

That is, his both his private and public life ought to reflect the gospel and the Christ he preaches in such a way that friends and enemies inside or outside the church will have no reason to doubt his integrity,character, or motives, no reason to wag their tongues, or tickle their imaginations, and certainly no proof to cite even if they do bring up a fabricated accusation against him.

Ted Haggard fooled his wife, children, and congregation for years. How sure are we now that besides this "male prostitute" he had never had a homosexual relationship with anybody else ?

Secondly, how sure can his future congregation be, or his wife, or his children, that this will never happen again ?

He is bisexual and a practicing homosexual. Like I said, given the admitted occupation of the "revelator", and that Haggard had been a constant "lover" or "client" or whatever anybody wants to call it is all the proof one needs of his sexual orientation.

I have no doubt he will, in the near future, "repent", maybe even break into tears in front of national television, and like somebody else said, write a book about his "sin, repentance, and restoration", and make money out of the travesty of the Lord's Name that he is guilty of as well.

I respect other's and Brother Bob's opinion on what they will do if he repented, but if I were pastoring a church and he were a member, he will be treated like a homosexual.

We will love him, and welcome him to listen to the Word preached, he can join us at church lunch, but membership is never going to be an option, not even leading the congregation once in a while in prayer, or songs.

Call it harsh, but that's the way things will be.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I respect other's and Brother Bob's opinion on what they will do if he repented, but if I were pastoring a church and he were a member, he will be treated like a homosexual.

We will love him, and welcome him to listen to the Word preached, he can join us at church lunch, but membership is never going to be an option, not even leading the congregation once in a while in prayer, or songs.

Call it harsh, but that's the way things will be.

Do you do that with other sins? Can someone who gets saved out of homosexuality ever be a member of your church?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [SIZE=+0]And [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]such [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]were [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]some [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]of [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]you[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: but[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] ye are washed[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], but[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] ye are sanctified[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], but[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] ye are justified[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] in[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the name[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]of the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Jesus[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], and[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] by[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the Spirit[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]of our[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] God[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]

 

[Jarthur001]

If you were referring to my post, then I venture to say it had everything to do with the OP. Your OP's subject line asked if Haggard should ever be allowed to pastor again.

The requirements for a bishop, also called an elder, set in 1 Timothy cover at least 7 verses. Haggard already falls flat on his face in just two parts of the second verse...".....A bishop then must be blameless .......of good behavior........"

That is, his both his private and public life ought to reflect the gospel and the Christ he preaches in such a way that friends and enemies inside or outside the church will have no reason to doubt his integrity,character, or motives, no reason to wag their tongues, or tickle their imaginations, and certainly no proof to cite even if they do bring up a fabricated accusation against him.

Ted Haggard fooled his wife, children, and congregation for years. How sure are we now that besides this "male prostitute" he had never had a homosexual relationship with anybody else ?

Secondly, how sure can his future congregation be, or his wife, or his children, that this will never happen again ?

He is bisexual and a practicing homosexual. Like I said, given the admitted occupation of the "revelator", and that Haggard had been a constant "lover" or "client" or whatever anybody wants to call it is all the proof one needs of his sexual orientation.

I have no doubt he will, in the near future, "repent", maybe even break into tears in front of national television, and like somebody else said, write a book about his "sin, repentance, and restoration", and make money out of the travesty of the Lord's Name that he is guilty of as well.

I respect other's and Brother Bob's opinion on what they will do if he repented, but if I were pastoring a church and he were a member, he will be treated like a homosexual.

We will love him, and welcome him to listen to the Word preached, he can join us at church lunch, but membership is never going to be an option, not even leading the congregation once in a while in prayer, or songs.

Call it harsh, but that's the way things will be.

I agree with much of what you said. Your focus was on the sin, where as I would focus on how public the sin was. Sin is in all of us. I know Bro Bob disagrees, but all others would agree. The reason why I can not focus on the sin, is that then we have a list of sins that will kick you out of the church, and sins that are OK to stay. Being a leader and a Pastor at that, when this man sinned he let a lot of people down. His family, friends, church members, church leaders, church groups, city leaders, state leaders, radio personal, TV personal...OK..he was a BIG public figure...so many in the nation he let down. But this would be true even if he lied in court.

Now, would you kick out your Pastor, because he had pride? Pride is sin. Who does not have some pride in their life? The BIGNESS of the sin is how much the public knows or how the public views it. In Gods eyes, a sin is a sin. If it was inside the church and pretty much stays in the church and the man was kicked out, he may be able have a leadership job again, in another town and state. This of course if he gets his life right with God. God saves sinners and but by the grace of God, there go I. In the end I agree.

The coming book...you can count on it. I only saw him one time on TV and he liked to talk about what he had done. "my church is bigger then your church" type of thing.

HOWEVER...The church membership. I'm not sure if I would not let him join. I'm not saying the next year, but if he proved himself over time, I may let him join. Not sure...still thinking on it. But...there are many things the man can do within the church in service. Just not pastor.

 

[Brother Bob]

HOWEVER...The church membership. I'm not sure if I would not let him join. I'm not saying the next year, but if he proved himself over time, I may let him join. Not sure...still thinking on it. But...there are many things the man can do within the church in service. Just not pastor.

Membership is first before he can do anything in our church. I am stunned to find that most believe that all sin is the same. It is not even according to the Scripture. When it says if he is guilty of one point he is guilty of all is the Ten Commandments. Unbelief is sin, running your mouth as I do often is sin but not a sin unto death. We have an advocate with God for those kind of sins. We cannot forgive sin, he sinned against God and his own body and he will have to go through God to get forgiveness. Homo is one of the worst sins. I would rather one of my children killed someone than turn out to be a homo.

 

[Jarthur001]

Membership is first before he can do anything in our church.

yes just as my post said

 

[Brother Bob]

agree............

 

[Tom Bryant]

Brother Bob,
What do you say to members of your church whose children choose homosexuality as a lifestyle?

 

[Brother Bob]

I say I will pray for them and their children. Their children will never be members of our church and our members know that unless they quit the homo and repent of their sins and be "born again". I don't believe it is impossible to be forgiven of anything except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost but I do believe the timber is made ready in the field and when they come into the building they will fit. I strongly am against keeping such in membership of the church. I believe you are deceiving them, the church and making them believe they are alright when in fact they are not. I place myself in the same position and they would not have to ask me to leave if I ever did such a thing. I would not dishonor the church like that. Now, if I repented and made it right with God then I would expect them to take me back as a new convert. There are people who would take them into membership as they are but not us. I would not be mean to them or deny them to come to our church to hear the gospel but they could not join until they quit homo and repented.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I certainly wouldn't and don't think anyone here would accept known practicing homosexuals into church membership, so that's not the issue.

As a pastor who has counseled believers who are members and have children who are homosexual, it just seemed your level of hostility towards homosexuals would preclude any kind of ministry with them or their parents.

 

[Brother Bob]

As a pastor who has counseled believers who are members and have children who are homosexual, it just seemed your level of hostility towards homosexuals would preclude any kind of ministry with them or their parents.

never and I would show all the compassion I could. What angers me so bad about this fellow is that he brought the church of God down and give the world reason to make fun of us, talk about us and condemn us. He was not just a member but one in the public eye and caused more harm that will take us a life time to try and undo. I have dealt with these fellows before but most time it was run off with a young woman. If I sound harsh, it is because I am harsh when it comes to someone who brings the church down to the gutter. I think what brings out the harshness in me is the fact so many upheld him and that I cannot stand. When Swaggert stood up and said "I have sinned" and cried, they gave him a standing ovation. I thought that was the biggest mockery of what a church is supposed to be that I have ever seen. I believe in a real church and not a social hall.

 

[EdSutton]

Would any of you vote for Paul as a member of a church? The one who said "Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners of which I am chief?"

How about Peter? Someone said he denied the Lord three times, even to knowing who he was, and tried to kill a man.

How about David, a known murderer and adulterer?

How about that thief, Jacob? Cheated his own daddy, broither, and father-in-law!

How about Rahab, a known prostitute?

What about Samson, a noted womanizer?

Or Solomon? somebody said he had hundreds of living wives!

I dunno! Sounds like a pretty sorry bunch to me!

I like the types with a better testimony, myself. In fact, I can think of a couple right off. One of them is said to get along well with others, went to a well known school, and is a real whiz with money, and we are needing a treasurer, as our current treasurer wants to give the job up.

We also need a good administrator for our school. And I heard about one person that might fit that bill. Seems he agonized a lot over evil in his last job of being a city mayor, before he had to give it up. I even heard that someone said he was the most righteous man they had ever heard of outside of the Lord, himself. And he has a wonderful family, or did until a couple of things happened to most of them. Seems he lost about six or eight of them in an urban fire, that also destroyed his home, and his wife met an untimely demise, as well, shortly thereafter. But he has two daughters, and both of them could use our help, being as both are expectant mothers, and their husbands must have perished in the fire, as well. A real tragedy!

That is the type we are looking for in our church, we can minister to them and they can benefit us, as well, so I am recommending that we take them as members.

"Brothers and sisters, I move we receive Judas and Lot and his two daughters as our newest members!"

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Ed;
To go back under the Law and bring up things that happened before being indwelt with the Holy Ghost and also to bring up Apostle Paul who certainly repented of his wrongs and make them examples to justify what this Guy did is a mockery of the Scriptures and the Church of God, IMO. We wonder where did all the morals go in today's church and you suggest these things is just no benefit to restoring trust in the Church whatsoever. You should be condemning such actions and advise the man needs to repent dearly of what he has done instead of going back under the Law or to Apostle Paul before He was converted to try and justify what this man did is a dishonor to the church, IMO. I can't believe instead of talking what a terrible thing that has happened you bring up the things you did. You need to work for the upbuilding of God's church and not the tearing down.

 

[El_Guero]

No - he should not pastor until after a period of reconciliation - 10 to 30 years sounds appropriate.

I ask this because of the following statement on another thread...

The requirements are clear from 1 Timothy on the role of an Elder. Are there any requirements banning someone from ever performing the role of Elder again if they are truly repentant? If a pastor gets drunk...are they never allowed to pastor again? Gluttony? Children getting in trouble with the law? Divorced?

I know the argument for divorce has been made before on both sides, but in Ted Haggard's case, if he were truly repentant and his life reflected this, should he be banned from the pulpit forever? Just curious...

 

[El_Guero]

Ed,

Was Paul an Apostle for 30 years when he joined in the stoning of Stephen?

Would any of you vote for Paul as a member of a church? The one who said "Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners of which I am chief?"

How about Peter? Someone said he denied the Lord three times, even to knowing who he was, and tried to kill a man.

How about David, a known murderer and adulterer?

How about that thief, Jacob? Cheated his own daddy, broither, and father-in-law!

How about Rahab, a known prostitute?

What about Samson, a noted womanizer?

Or Solomon? somebody said he had hundreds of living wives!

I dunno! Sounds like a pretty sorry bunch to me!

I like the types with a better testimony, myself. In fact, I can think of a couple right off. One of them is said to get along well with others, went to a well known school, and is a real whiz with money, and we are needing a treasurer, as our current treasurer wants to give the job up.

We also need a good administrator for our school. And I heard about one person that might fit that bill. Seems he agonized a lot over evil in his last job of being a city mayor, before he had to give it up. I even heard that someone said he was the most righteous man they had ever heard of outside of the Lord, himself. And he has a wonderful family, or did until a couple of things happened to most of them. Seems he lost about six or eight of them in an urban fire, that also destroyed his home, and his wife met an untimely demise, as well, shortly thereafter. But he has two daughters, and both of them could use our help, being as both are expectant mothers, and their husbands must have perished in the fire, as well. A real tragedy!

That is the type we are looking for in our church, we can minister to them and they can benefit us, as well, so I am recommending that we take them as members.

"Brothers and sisters, I move we receive Judas and Lot and his two daughters as our newest members!"

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Ed,

Was Paul an Apostle for 30 years when he joined in the stoning of Stephen?

No, but he was an apostle for some twenty-odd years (don't know the exact time) when he made this statement,

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. (I Tim. 1:15 - NKJV)

There are three points to be noted, here.

#1. This is the indicative mood, and present (or continuous) tense in the Greek, I believe (although I am drawing on my memory which is not what it once was, on this); not the imperfect, perfect, pluperfect, or aorist. Not something that happened twenty years before when he went forth hunting Christians, to "round up the usual suspects" and bring 'em back, for they were "WANTED, Dead or Alive!"; not something that was done and is now over; not something that was completed five years ago, so that he (Paul) is not now but used to be a sinner! None of that! He is speaking of the present time, as he is writing to Timothy, "...I am chief."

#2. To my knowledge, this is the one and only place in the NT, where any saved individual is spoken of as "a sinner", although there is one other that lists that possibility, "IF ... we are found to be sinners...." Beyond that, the Christain is called a saint, sanctified, or holy- and nearly 60 times is spoken of in that manner.

#3. Saints do sin, unfortuantely. And that is all saints, not just some of them and some of us.

Ed

 

[gb93433]

Seems to me that God chose Moses and Paul both of whom were murderers. Peter cut off a man's ear.

We are quick to condemn for life, but not God. God is merciful and gracious. He is quick to forgive. Wheer does that put us.

 

[LeBuick]

I am stunned to find that most believe that all sin is the same. It is not even according to the Scripture. When it says if he is guilty of one point he is guilty of all is the Ten Commandments..

With the exception of blasphemy, show in scripture where sin is rated? Perhaps it's my view but I've always believed sin is sin. Yes, that means a liar is just a guilty as a murderer or homosexual. That's why it says let every man examine himself, don't look at others faults, look at ourselves and if you are worthy thank God for it is his grace that made us worthy.

I agree his actions were a black eye to the Church but black eye's heal and we are usually better people after receiving a good punch in the eye. There are lessons to be learned by the Church in this and every situation. I think the biggest and most obvious test that immediately confronts us is can we still love, forgive and keep our arms around one of our own who was found weak and fallen by the side of the road. We say we can, well, here is our test.

Do we spit on him and look the other way while we rush to our holy place called Church so we can do the will of the Father or do we be a good neighbor and see to the needs of our fellowman?

 

[EdSutton]

Ed;
To go back under the Law and bring up things that happened before being indwelt with the Holy Ghost and also to bring up Apostle Paul who certainly repented of his wrongs and make them examples to justify what this Guy did is a mockery of the Scriptures and the Church of God, IMO. We wonder where did all the morals go in today's church and you suggest these things is just no benefit to restoring trust in the Church whatsoever. You should be condemning such actions and advise the man needs to repent dearly of what he has done instead of going back under the Law or to Apostle Paul before He was converted to try and justify what this man did is a dishonor to the church, IMO. I can't believe instead of talking what a terrible thing that has happened you bring up the things you did. You need to work for the upbuilding of God's church and not the tearing down.

I disagree, obviously. As my previous post to this one shows, Paul was speaking of the present. And I am in no way making anyone an example to justify anyone's wrongs. I previously argued against rushing to judgment about Ted Haggard, only on the 'hearsay' word of one individual, whose veracity could be questionable, to say the least. But Ted Haggard's own admission, makes that point moot, I guess.

As to the specifics of my own post, Paul and Peter lived most of their lives beyond the cross, hence were not "under the law", at all. (Nor was Lot, for he lived some 400 years before "the Law".) In fact, it was Peter who made that point eloquently, at the Jerusalem council, that Israel 'had not been able to bear' it (Moses' Law) at all.

But I do reject the 'legalism' I am seeing in this thread, from some, although that is not the primary problem in the first place, but more like number four, five or six.

First and foremost, as others have pointed out, is sin, and the sin nature. If Paul could say he did not do what he would, why in the world would I think I am any better?

Second, I seem to recall a Scripture that says these words: " Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." (I Cor. 10:12 - NKJV) Some on this thread have applied it to themselves, others haven't, at least on the pages of this thread. But if one were to look for a little pride, could one not see a wee bit in this situation with Ted Haggard?

Thirdly, and as I have said at least five or six times in 10 mos., on the BB, we are once again confuting and confusing the gifts and the offices. Is Ted Haggard Biblically unqualified to hold the position of a bishop/elder? As of now, absolutely, in my view. Ten or twenty years in the future? Maybe; maybe not. We have to see on that. Does Ted Haggard suddenly not have the gift of pastor/teacher? No, not at all. If he was given that spiritual gift, upon believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, and had it 15 years ago, he has it now. The gifts are given at the sole discretion of the Holy Spirit, as I have said for at least the fifth time, on the BB, and have no qualifications and/or strings attached. Whether or not he has that gift, is for someone else to know, as I've never heard him, nor read anything by him. Can he use that gift again, or even now? Absolutely! Am I responsible, were I an elder, to give him a platform, today? "Not a chance in Hell-for-Certain, KY!" (Which happens to be an actual community within 80 miles of both you and me, Brother Bob, as you and I both well know.) And I believe he can use his gift lo-o-n-ng before he can be 'reinstated'? as an elder, anywhere, if he can ever be reinstated at all.

Fourthly, the afore mentioned 'legalism'.

Fifthly, I do not see that Philip did any 'background check' on the eunuch, do you? How about Peter, on the 3000 at the day of Pentecost? How about at Cornelius' house? The Philippian Jailer? As I read it, when they believed, they were baptized. Then the real work starts; the discipling bit, you know.

And whether or not you (or anyone else) like those I named, aside from Judas, who gave every appearance of being a believer, even to the point of gaining the trust of the Disciples to make him the treasurer of the group, each and every one of these was a saved individual, and an important Biblical figure, to boot.
Paul - the greatest 'missionary' of all time!;
Peter - the one who made some of the deepest and most eloquent sermons in history, to say nothing of his thundering proclamation of Jesus: "You are the Christ; the Son of the Living God!", the words of which still echo today, along with the Lord's recognition of it, and referring to himself, "Upon this rock I will build My church...!"
Solomon - the preacher-king of Israel - the person with the longest 'testimony' and 'sermon' combo recorded in the pages of Scripture (Ecclesiastes), and the one who built the Temple for YHWH.
David, Rahab, Jacob, and Samson? You'll find all of them in the Hall of Fame' of 'the heroes of faith' in Hebrews 11. I done checked the list! I didn't make the cut. Did anyone on the BB?
Oh- yeah- Lot! The Biblical saint of saints! The Mayor of Sodom, too. I've posted this before. He is called 'righteous' three times. The only other individual who is described in that way more than three times is the Lord Jesus Christ, and the only other man that hits three is Abel. And Lot is the only man mentioned on the pages of Scripture that Scripture specifically identifies with 'godly'. Folks, if you don't like these characterizations, take it up with the Lord, don't blame me. I merely repeated what He wrote.

Finally, as to the 'sins' of Ted Haggard, or any other, I agree that they are very bad. I also agree with another who touched on 'pride'. Is one abomination worse than another abomination, in the sight of the Lord?? Not to my knowledge, but I could be wrong on this. Is "homo" an abomination? I believe that it is, and I think Scripture teaches that, as well. Is it more of an "abomination", than any other "abomination", say, these?

16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

Could be I guess, but I didn't see any Scripture saying that, at a quick glance? Anyone got any?

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Paul - the greatest 'missionary' of all time!;
Peter - the one who made some of the deepest and most eloquent sermons in history, to say nothing of his thundering proclamation of Jesus: "You are the Christ; the Son of the Living God!", the words of which still echo today, along with the Lord's recognition of it, and referring to himself, "Upon this rock I will build My church...!"
Solomon - the preacher-king of Israel - the person with the longest 'testimony' and 'sermon' combo recorded in the pages of Scripture (Ecclesiastes), and the one who built the Temple for YHWH.
David, Rahab, Jacob, and Samson? You'll find all of them in the Hall of Fame' of 'the heroes of faith' in Hebrews 11. I done checked the list! I didn't make the cut. Did anyone on the BB?
Oh- yeah- Lot! The Biblical saint of saints! The Mayor of Sodom, too. I've posted this before. He is called 'righteous' three times. The only other individual who is described in that way more than three times is the Lord Jesus Christ, and the only other man that hits three is Abel. And Lot is the only man mentioned on the pages of Scripture that Scripture specifically identifies with 'godly'. Folks,

Neither one of these you mention have the Holy Ghost within them at the time these happened.

Paul said "of whom I am cheif". I can't find where Paul was doing all these things when he spoke this passage so I take it to mean the kind of life he had lived such as persecuting all those Christians. I can't find where Paul did anything like terrible sin after being converted. Maybe you can enlighten me?

One sin differ than another? When it says if you overtake a brother in a sin, I do not believe it means a homo but someone who is for example "fighting with his neighbor".
As far as these type of sins? With the exception of blasphemy, show in scripture where sin is rated? Perhaps it's my view but I've always believed sin is sin. Yes, that means a liar is just a guilty as a murderer or homosexual. That's why it says let every man examine himself, don't look at others faults, look at ourselves and if you are worthy thank God for it is his grace that made us worthy.
We would not walk with either.
If our church was filled with murderers, homos, liars, drunks, theives. I would stay HOME!! period.

What does 20 or 30 years have to do with it. You must have a good report of them which are without, and I don't think 20 years will help in his case.

I came to the church to get away from the world not to help keep the world in the church. I know this is blunt but IMO, I believe there is the Church and there is the World. You are either in or out, no fence riding, or "lukewarm".
The church is a place to help the sinner but not a place to harbor them and I mean sins such as homo.
Again, fault me if you must. I have looked for others who believe as I do on this matter and there seems to be some but the most go the other way.

I will give you an example of sin. Under the OT they stoned them to death for adultery, murder, probably homo too but for fighting, being angry and those type of sins can you show me where they also were put to death?

 

[LeBuick]

I came to the church to get away from the world not to help keep the world in the church. I know this is blunt but IMO, I believe there is the Church and there is the World. You are either in or out, no fence riding, or "lukewarm".

True, but unfortunately the Church body or people in the Church is made up of people who have all kinds of weaknesses and temptations. The transformation process is not all at once and we grow in our walk with Christ. We strive to get better and better, closer and closer to the Lord each day but the Lord himself controls the perfecting process. Unfortunately this means some of us will stumble, some will fall, some will stray but it is we who who God has placed over the sheep that should be willing to leave the 90 and 9 and go after the one that is lost.

If we don't, the devil will...