Tell Others That Jesus Died For Them ?

[Helen]

Actually, and with all respect, it does not matter what Spurgeon believed or whether the good pastor agrees or not. It matters what the Bible says:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2:9

but, for the Calvinists "everyone" does not mean "everyone".

"For God so loved the world"...but 'world' does not mean 'world.'

"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"
...but 'anyone' does not mean 'anyone' and 'everyone' does not mean 'everyone.'

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart" [says the Lord]...but ....but....this doesn't fit with Calvinism. So they ignore this verse and the dozens of others that encourage men to seek the Lord.

"Choose this day whom you will serve" ...but 'choice' is only of one thing for the unredeemed in Calvinism. They call a 'choice' of only one thing a 'choice.' Oh well...

Language was given to us by God for the purpose of communication. The Calvinists are trying to reverse that so that the process yields confusion. And fear, and uncertainty, and nervousness about one's position with the Lord. It's a lot like Roman Catholicism that way....you just never are sure....at least with RC you are offered the hope of good works getting you someplace (even if that is a false hope). With Calvinism, you are offered no hope at all, just fatalism.

 

[J.D.]

Helen, With all due respect, I didn't ask you a question. I've got my reasons for asking that you don't know.

 

[mima]

Is this a Calvinist story? Asked by family to go witness to a man, I did. After witnessing to him and seeing that he understood completely I asked him did he want to pray about his salvation? He almost literally ran me out of the house, at least he led me to the door. Three months later while attending church with his wife he suddenly jumped up went forward and accepted the Lord Jesus Christ. He later made this statement to my sister when asked, what happened, he said I could not have stayed in that seat that morning something got ahold of me and I had an urge to go forward and be saved. I know the story to be true of course because I was involved. So the question arises did this man come forward by choice or by an unseen force? What do you think?

 

[J.D.]

The man made a decision to go forward due to the unseen force of God's quickening Spirit. He resisted but at after a while could no longer deny what God had done in his heart.

Some might call this calvinism, but I call it the gospel. It is that power by which the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts. It is that light shining in, that wind of God blowing where it listeth.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Is 50:2 Wherefore, when I came, [was there] no man? when I called, [was there] none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because [there is] no water, and dieth for thirst.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by J.D.:
Helen, With all due respect, I didn't ask you a question. I've got my reasons for asking that you don't know.

Then ask him on a PM where I won't see it!

 

[Pastor KevinR]

Originally posted by J.D.:
Pastor KevinR: Spurgeon did not believe that Christ died for every person. Do you agree with him?

Not on this point, but as Helen said, taking what the writer of Hebrews said, how could I? Calvinism is a fascinating doctrine, some of which I agree, and some seems (at face value) to contradict Scripture (as does Arminianism). I do however agree w/ CHS that one is not saved by compulsion. Maybe you can direct me to his writings where he reconciles the two seemingly (to me, at least) contradictory teachings. Thanks. I'll give CHS the benefit of any doubt.

 

[Linda64]

Originally posted by J.D.:
Helen, With all due respect, I didn't ask you a question. I've got my reasons for asking that you don't know.

Whether you agree with Helen or not--this is a PUBLIC forum and Helen has the right to post in here as everybody else. BTW, I agree with Helen

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
"For God so loved the world"...but 'world' does not mean 'world.'

Helen, are we back to this tired old argument again? World always means world. The problem is what does "world" mean in context. If world always has to mean "every single person in existence" then you have a serious problem if we are told that God so loved the world in John 3:16, but we are commanded not to love the world in 1 John 2:15. You also have a problem in the fact that Jesus said he prayed for his own but not for the world in John 17:9.

Do you not see that the same word "world" means 3 different things in these verses? The question is not whether it always means the same thing. It should be obvious by these 3 verses that it does not. The question is whether it means "every single person in existence" in John 3:16. You think it does. I think, and have good evidence, that it does not.

Don't act as if we are just playing with words and don't know what we are talking about. Come up with a new argument that actually can hold up to scrutiny.

 

[J.D.]

PastorKevin: Before I start looking for a Spurgeon reference to back anything up, what I'm really wanting to know is why you would quote Spurgeon to begin with.

This is an honest question. I'm not trying to be sneaky on this, like I usually am.

I don't understand why a quote from Spurgeon is supposed to be so significant, especially for those that are not 5 point calvinists.

I've read the Sword of the Lord for years, and they can hardly live without quoting Spurgeon, and they refer to him as a "moderate" calvinist, and then they label those that hold to Spurgeon's beliefs as HYPER-calvinists. David Cloud recommends Spurgeon frequently yet says his doctrine is "dangerous to bible-believing churches". See my article on that at www.arminiansaying.blogspot.com. Dave Hunt seems to be a hot-headed calvin-hater, but lists Spurgeon (and other calvinists) on his recommended reading list.

That's why I say that for some reason arminians want to turn Spurgeon into a closet arminian. I don't get it. He was nothing of the sort. See my exchange with JohnofJapan on the thread "D.L. Moody".

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by mima:
Is this a Calvinist story? Asked by family to go witness to a man, I did. After witnessing to him and seeing that he understood completely I asked him did he want to pray about his salvation? He almost literally ran me out of the house, at least he led me to the door. Three months later while attending church with his wife he suddenly jumped up went forward and accepted the Lord Jesus Christ. He later made this statement to my sister when asked, what happened, he said I could not have stayed in that seat that morning something got ahold of me and I had an urge to go forward and be saved. I know the story to be true of course because I was involved. So the question arises did this man come forward by choice or by an unseen force? What do you think?

Mima, in short, he came forward by choice. He originally rejected you by choice and would have continued rejecting you. But that morning when he heard the gospel again, the Holy Spirit regenerated him and following his new desires from his heart of flesh, he came forward and received Christ.

It is the same thing that happened to Paul who had heard Stephen speak and consented to his stoning. When confronted with the gospel later on the road to Damascus, he was regenerated and responded to the gospel from a new heart by believing.

Four years ago, I shared the gospel (yes, we Calvinists do that) with some neighbors of a church member. I used the Evangelism Explosion method (developed by a Calvinist - D. James Kennedy). The wife only listened for about 2 minutes and went upstairs to put their two boys to bed. The husband listened for about 45 minutes and said, "Well, that all sounds really nice, but I just don't think I need all of that." 4 years later, he and his wife started coming to church and are now believers. The have a hunger for God that they couldn't even concieve of 4 years ago.

The difference? Was it my gospel presentation? Was it the stage of life they were in? I don't believe so. The difference was that when I shared with them 4 years ago, for some reason God didn't regenerate them. Last year, God did and they responded by choosing Him. This is Calvinism. It is also what the Bible tells us happens.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
Language was given to us by God for the purpose of communication. The Calvinists are trying to reverse that so that the process yields confusion. And fear, and uncertainty, and nervousness about one's position with the Lord. It's a lot like Roman Catholicism that way....you just never are sure....at least with RC you are offered the hope of good works getting you someplace (even if that is a false hope). With Calvinism, you are offered no hope at all, just fatalism.

Helen, by what you say, you show me that you don't understand Calvinism at all. Arminians are the ones that believe you can lose your salvation. Calvinists point to the Bible which says that if you believe you are saved. If you are unsure of your salvation, look to your fruit.

Read 1 John which is all about assurance. If you say you love Him (claim to be saved), you will love the brethren(have fruit). If you say you love Him(claim to be saved), you will keep His commandments(have fruit). If you claim to be saved but have none of this, then you are a liar.

Free will is really the position that offers no hope at all because Christ's death accomplished nothing for you personally. Your sins are not really atoned for, only possibly atoned for. God is not really propitiated, only possibly propitiated. Christ's death only made everyone savable, but the rest is up to you. That is a hopeless belief system.

Calvinists believe that God has chosen those He will save, then sent Christ to die for them. Christ's death absolutely secured their salvation. The Holy Spirit draws them to faith and them seals them and causes them to persevere in the faith. If you truly believe in Christ, you show yourself to be one of the elect and there is nothing but hope for a future with God. Rather than the ball being in your court, with the hope that you won't screw it up, the ball is in God's court from start to finish. He is the author and finisher of our faith (oh, wait, that's in the Bible).

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by Linda64:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by J.D.:
Helen, With all due respect, I didn't ask you a question. I've got my reasons for asking that you don't know.

Whether you agree with Helen or not--this is a PUBLIC forum and Helen has the right to post in here as everybody else. BTW, I agree with Helen </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't mean to offend although I was a little terse with that. I didn't want to lose PastorKevin's attention cause I wanted to here his answer.

 

[Pastor KevinR]

J.D.
I quote CHS for the simple reason is that he said it. I know he is a Calvinists to an extent, to what extent, I'm simply not sure. I thought it was interesting in light of this debate. I have no ulterior motives. Honestly though, this sermon is printed in The Sword of the LORD, March 24, 2006, but I find the Sword a little too man centered, although you'd prolly disagree w/ me how man centered they are. (in my view the current Editor is too KJVO and hyper separatists.)

 

[rjprince]

JD,

“Hogwash” is a great theological term. It speak of the prodigal pig who decided that it wanted to get cleaned up and live in the house, like a member of the family! The whole thing was a disaster, pigs cannot clean themselves up! They must be transformed into children by the power of God, not by notion of self-reformation! “Hogwash” is a great theological term. (See 2Pet 2:22, OK, I will admit that “Hogwash” is a less than precise term, it should have been “Sow-wash”.)


Billreber,

Biblical C does not deny the “need to tell others about the love of Jesus”. It recognizes that Jesus did indeed command us to go into all the world and make disciples. THAT IS THE MEANS GOD HAS CHOSEN TO BRING SINNERS TO SALVATION! Biblical C does not deny that! As far as being needed, I am confident that the angels could have done a much better job at evangelizing than either you or I have. On at least ONE previous occasion, God has used a jack ass to declare His word. And Jesus declared, “If these held their peace, the stones would cry out”. God need us? You have got to be kidding! He does chose to use us, but the need is with us, not Him. He does not need us, but we desperately need Him.


Mima,

GREAT CALVINIST STORY!


JD,

The man made a decision to go forward due to the unseen force of God's quickening Spirit. He resisted but at after a while could no longer deny what God had done in his heart.

Some might call this calvinism, but I call it the gospel. It is that power by which the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts. It is that light shining in, that wind of God blowing where it listeth.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

“Unseen force of God’s quickening Spirit... What God had done in his heart... Some might call this calvinism, but I call it the gospel... That wind of God blowing where it listeth...”

Brother, if you did not rage so against the word “calvinism” I would be convinced that you are one! This is the essence of sovereign grace salvation! It is God that does it, not man! I cannot make the wind of God blow, it blows where it listeth. This is BIBLE, and this is the essence of BIBLICAL salvation. This man chose to reject both the message and the messenger at his first hearing, but the Spirit of God worked in his heart to draw him to the Savior! He would never have come on his own, God drew him... Calvinism in its PUREST form... Straight out of the Book... You and I may not be as far apart as our rhetoric makes it sound...


Re quoting Spurgeon,

It is interesting to read others. They can help sharpen the Sword as well. Bottom line has always got to be “what saith the Scripture”. The advantage of reading others is that they can help you better understand the Scripture. The DISadvantage of reading other is that they can confuse you on the Scripture. It is a double edged sword that can cut both ways.

 

[James_Newman]

Helen, by what you say, you show me that you don't understand Calvinism at all. Arminians are the ones that believe you can lose your salvation. Calvinists point to the Bible which says that if you believe you are saved. If you are unsure of your salvation, look to your fruit.

Calvinists believe that if your really saved you will have works, or 'fruit', while Arminians believe that if you don't have works, or 'fruit', then your not saved. World of difference there...

1 John is not about looking to your fruit for assurance of your eternal salvation, 1 John is looking to the reward of the inheritance. John is speaking to those who are ALREADY saved by faith. Jesus did not say that whosoever loves Him will have eternal life, He said whosoever believes. He did promise a kingdom, though, to those that love Him.
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

People who are 'called' are not necesarily 'chosen'. Everyone is not called, contrary to what Pastor KevinR stated earlier. Many are called, few are chosen, but not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. You can't assume just because you are saved by faith that God has ordained you to be crowned and reign with Jesus in Glory.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You don't work for salvation, you work for the kingdom. Whether you have fruit or not, if you believe, you will be saved.

 

[Dustin]

Amen to that!

 

[J.D.]

Brother, if you did not rage so against the word “calvinism” I would be convinced that you are one!

Uh, you haven't been reading my posts very long, have you? Or was that tongue-and-cheek?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Calvinism is just about the most useless doctrine that I ever came across. All it does is engender strife, and cause people to doubt whether it is even worthwhile to go preach the gospel. It doesn't help anyone to live a godly life, it doesn't cause anyone to repent of sin, I would like to know if it can be used to line bird cages or something similar. I understand where hogwash might come in handy, but Calvinism I got no use for.

God has use for it. It Glorifies Him. Free willism (semi-Pelagianism) glorifies man. I have no use for that.

 

[J.D.]

PastorKevin: Correction to earlier post:

That article is at www.arminiansayings.blogspot.com.

 

[rjprince]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Calvinism is just about the most useless doctrine that I ever came across. All it does is engender strife, and cause people to doubt whether it is even worthwhile to go preach the gospel. It doesn't help anyone to live a godly life, it doesn't cause anyone to repent of sin, I would like to know if it can be used to line bird cages or something similar. I understand where hogwash might come in handy, but Calvinism I got no use for...


Of course I don't know it all, why don't somebody show me how the 5-pointy tulip will make me a better Christian...


Isn't there a Cliffs Notes or something? You couldn't just give an example or something, could you? What would be the most convincing reason that truly holding Calvinism to be true would cause me to love the Lord and my neighbor better?

You could say something like, 'well knowing that you were ordained to eternal life would make you grateful and then you would want to serve God with all your might', and I might say 'well knowing that I am saved because Jesus died for my sins would make me grateful and then I would want to serve God with all my might, and you can't know you're ordained to eternal life while I can know that Jesus died for sinners.'

Uh, guess I have not been reading your posts very long. May have made a quick judgement based on these. Been away from the board for a while. Was pretty active for a while till my son got a brain tumor. For all I remember you may have posted prayers on one of those threads. Sorry if I misjudged. Do you hold to a strong view of election and sovereignty in regard to salvation?