Tell the Truth by Will Metzger discussion

[evangelist6589]

Question: Based on pages 58-70 do you think Metzger argues that love and grace should only be preached to the humble or does he argue that both the moral law and grace and compassion be preached to proud sinners? WOTM says law to the proud and grace for the humble. So in other words proud sinners get no grace or mention of Gods love for them

Question for you: Turn to page 76. Who grants faith and repentance?

T/F

Metzger argues for the free will of man in coming to salvation.

 

[JonC]

Question: Based on pages 58-70 do you think Metzger argues that love and grace should only be preached to the humble or does he argue that both the moral law and grace and compassion be preached to proud sinners? WOTM says law to the proud and grace for the humble. So in other words proud sinners get no grace or mention of Gods love for them

Question for you: Turn to page 76. Who grants faith and repentance?

T/F

Metzger argues for the free will of man in coming to salvation.

I don't have the book in front of me, and am not willing to take a "pop quiz," although I am more than willing to discuss the book. Regardless of what Metzger argues, the gospel (in full and to include grace and God's law) should be proclaimed to sinners regardless of their humility or pride.

Again, as I don't have the book with me..... I'll look when I get home about what the author says about who grants faith and repentance. From a non-Calvinistic standpoint, it is typically presented as it being God that grants faith and repentance (this is certainly true of Arminian doctrine...reference the articles if in doubt) and I am comfortable saying it is the same for the Reformed. Without the book in front of me, I'd say that Metzger, being orthodox in his beliefs, would hold that this faith and repentance is of God. That said, I do believe that some (perhaps many) present the gospel message without repentance - my point is that this is not reflective of the "soteriological camp" within which they fall.

 

[JonC]

Ok. I have the book now. Yes, Metzger presents the biblical position that it is the Spirit that brings people to faith and repentance. I do like Metzger’s emphasis on the “call to respond,” as he notes that “an inherent part of the biblical gospel is the call to respond” (pg 75). He does consider what he calls “method-centered evangelism” as being too active and confusing to the sinner. Here he is concerned with “signing a card, repeating a prayer, walking forward, raising a hand, etc.).

It is at this point I may disagree a bit. While Metzger does not condemn the practice of repeating a prayer, walking forward, or raising a hand as “unbiblical,” he does make a somewhat odd connection. He sees this as creating “undue psychological pressure” that betrays our reliance of the sovereignty of God. He views this as a “mistrust of the Spirit’s power.” The issue I have is that in most cases (from my limited experience) such invitations are opportunities to respond. They are not high pressure sales pitches (and I have never heard someone walking forward due to “undue psychological pressure”). Indeed, it would be more understandable to not walk forward due to psychological pressure. But I do see how some sermons (for example, Johnathan Edward’s passionate “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”) could approach the author’s definitions.

 

[JonC]

Ok John. Here's the appropriate place.

Show me on pages 28 and 29 where Metzer denies that we are to lives so that others may see and believe. Once you do that, then I can show you where he is critically wrong and teaching a doctrine contrary to Scripture (I just can't find it in the book).

 

[evangelist6589]

Ok John. Here's the appropriate place.

Show me on pages 28 and 29 where Metzer denies that we are to lives so that others may see and believe. Once you do that, then I can show you where he is critically wrong and teaching a doctrine contrary to Scripture (I just can't find it in the book).

Okay I will do this later. But off the top of my head Metzger would not deny this.

Also if you are interested here are some other books. I am trying to treat this book like a book in seminary and some I had to read with a tooth brush as everything was important. This is one such book.

Today Evangelism by Reisinger
The Gospel's Power and Message by Paul Washer

Perhaps in a seminary class on evangelism these books would be extra readings. I know a brother that teaches this Metzger book in churches, and he tells me they also use the Paul Washer book as additional reading to supplement Metzger.

 

[JonC]

Okay I will do this later. But off the top of my head Metzger would not deny this.

Thank you, I eagerly await your reply.

I will offer this, Metzger does not deny those Scriptures. In fact, his statement "both our words and our ways are inextricably bound together in witnessing" (pg. 24-25) is the point of "The Fifth Gospel."

Also if you are interested here are some other books. I am trying to treat this book like a book in seminary and some I had to read with a tooth brush as everything was important. This is one such book.

Today Evangelism by Reisinger
The Gospel's Power and Message by Paul Washer

Perhaps in a seminary class on evangelism these books would be extra readings. I know a brother that teaches this Metzger book in churches, and he tells me they also use the Paul Washer book as additional reading to supplement Metzger.

No thank you. I am working through "Tell the Truth" because I told you I would. It does not stand out among other evangelism "how to's," and I am tiring of all of his stories. I have always wondered why books on evangelism seem to have so many stories.

 

[evangelist6589]

Thank you, I eagerly await your reply.

I will offer this, Metzger does not deny those Scriptures. In fact, his statement "both our words and our ways are inextricably bound together in witnessing" (pg. 24-25) is the point of "The Fifth Gospel."

No thank you. I am working through "Tell the Truth" because I told you I would. It does not stand out among other evangelism "how to's," and I am tiring of all of his stories. I have always wondered why books on evangelism seem to have so many stories.

Its a good book and is used in many seminaries. On pages 76-80 Metzger speaks on repentance, Lordship salvation, and true and false converts. What is your opinion on these pages? I do not think Metzger tells many stories. Ray Comfort tells tons of stories. Metzger is far more academic.

PS- The Bible speaks well of Diligent Study (Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. --2 Timothy 2:15).

 

[evangelist6589]

Check out this syllabus

I really think you will get more out of our discussion if you got the other books I mentioned, but if you do not its up to you really. As for me I want to MAXIMIZE my learning in evangelism.

http://www.rts.edu/Site/Academics/d...2-2013_02MS508_Introduction_to_Evangelism.pdf

REQUIRED TEXTS

• Metzger, Will, Tell the Truth: The Whole Gospel to the Whole Person by Whole People. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 3rd Edition, 2002. (ISBN: 9780830823222)
• Miller, C. John (Jack), A Faith Worth Sharing. Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, 1999. (ISBN: 9780875523910)
• Packer, J.I., Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2001. (ISBN: 9780830834129)
• Stott, John R.W., Basic Christianity (IVP Classics). Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2006. (ISBN: 978-0830834037)
Recommended:
The following books contain material (see Section VII footnotes) that is not required reading but will help deepen your understanding of the gospel and evangelism.
• Anyabwile, Thabiti, The Gospel for Muslims: An Encouragement to Share Christ With Confidence. Chicago: Moody Publishers, 2010. (ISBN: 9780802471116)
• Barrs, Jerram, The Heart of Evangelism. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 2001. (ISBN: 9781581347159)
• Hybels, Bill and Mittelberg, Mark, Becoming a Contagious Christian. Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishers, 1996. (ISBN: 9780310210085)
• Keller, Timothy, The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism, Penguin Group, 2009. (ISBN: 9780525950493)
• Kennedy, D. J., Evangelism Explosion (4th Edition), Tyndale House, 1996. (ISBN: 9780842307642)
• Kuiper, R.B., God-Centered Evangelism, Banner of Truth, 1978. (ISBN: 9780851511108)
• *Wolters, Albert, Creation Regained (Second Edition): Biblical Basics for a Reformational Worldview. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing InterVarsity Press, 2005. (ISBN: 9780802829696) *Highly Recommended

 

[JonC]

Check out this syllabus

I really think you will get more out of our discussion if you got the other books I mentioned, but if you do not its up to you really. As for me I want to MAXIMIZE my learning in evangelism.

http://www.rts.edu/Site/Academics/d...2-2013_02MS508_Introduction_to_Evangelism.pdf

REQUIRED TEXTS

• Metzger, Will, Tell the Truth: The Whole Gospel to the Whole Person by Whole People. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 3rd Edition, 2002. (ISBN: 9780830823222)
• Miller, C. John (Jack), A Faith Worth Sharing. Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, 1999. (ISBN: 9780875523910)
• Packer, J.I., Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2001. (ISBN: 9780830834129)
• Stott, John R.W., Basic Christianity (IVP Classics). Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2006. (ISBN: 978-0830834037)
Recommended:
The following books contain material (see Section VII footnotes) that is not required reading but will help deepen your understanding of the gospel and evangelism.
• Anyabwile, Thabiti, The Gospel for Muslims: An Encouragement to Share Christ With Confidence. Chicago: Moody Publishers, 2010. (ISBN: 9780802471116)
• Barrs, Jerram, The Heart of Evangelism. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 2001. (ISBN: 9781581347159)
• Hybels, Bill and Mittelberg, Mark, Becoming a Contagious Christian. Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishers, 1996. (ISBN: 9780310210085)
• Keller, Timothy, The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism, Penguin Group, 2009. (ISBN: 9780525950493)
• Kennedy, D. J., Evangelism Explosion (4th Edition), Tyndale House, 1996. (ISBN: 9780842307642)
• Kuiper, R.B., God-Centered Evangelism, Banner of Truth, 1978. (ISBN: 9780851511108)
• *Wolters, Albert, Creation Regained (Second Edition): Biblical Basics for a Reformational Worldview. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing InterVarsity Press, 2005. (ISBN: 9780802829696) *Highly Recommended

I have read enough books on evangelism to last a lifetime (evangelism courses in seminary). One thing that you will probably recognize is that these books are finding ways to say the same thing (how to reach the world with the gospel). Every so often one comes up that peaks my interest. David Wells has been my favorite for understanding the postmodern culture, but I have read most of the authors you list here. You and I are in the middle of discussing two books (Tell the Truth and The Fifth Gospel). That's enough for me....right now anyway.

BTW, did you confirm that Metzger and Conway were holding identical views in regards to the spoken and lived gospel yet? It's on pages 24-25 (I included a quote of his statement).

 

[evangelist6589]

I have read enough books on evangelism to last a lifetime (evangelism courses in seminary). One thing that you will probably recognize is that these books are finding ways to say the same thing (how to reach the world with the gospel). Every so often one comes up that peaks my interest. David Wells has been my favorite for understanding the postmodern culture, but I have read most of the authors you list here. You and I are in the middle of discussing two books (Tell the Truth and The Fifth Gospel). That's enough for me....right now anyway.

BTW, did you confirm that Metzger and Conway were holding identical views in regards to the spoken and lived gospel yet? It's on pages 24-25 (I included a quote of his statement).

At first glance perhaps, but then again I have not received my copy of the 5th gospel as of yet. I just sure hope that he does not advocate only in favor of lifestyle evangelism.

Opening ones mouth is far more important of a factor in the evangelism process. No I am not saying ones conduct is not important, but the message of the gospel is crucial to a dying world. Plenty of Mormons live very ethical and moral lives, but they have the wrong message. So books emphasizing lifestyle or friendship evangelism solely are wrong.

 

[Don]

Opening ones mouth is far more important of a factor in the evangelism process.

I believe they're equal.

No I am not saying ones conduct is not important, but the message of the gospel is crucial to a dying world. Plenty of Mormons live very ethical and moral lives, but they have the wrong message.

The opposite is also true: There are many who open their mouths and voice the gospel, but live a life of hedonism completely opposite to the message they profess.

So books emphasizing lifestyle or friendship evangelism solely are wrong.

Completely agree.

 

[JonC]

At first glance perhaps, but then again I have not received my copy of the 5th gospel as of yet. I just sure hope that he does not advocate only in favor of lifestyle evangelism.

Opening ones mouth is far more important of a factor in the evangelism process. No I am not saying ones conduct is not important, but the message of the gospel is crucial to a dying world. Plenty of Mormons live very ethical and moral lives, but they have the wrong message. So books emphasizing lifestyle or friendship evangelism solely are wrong.

:thumbsup: You don't have to worry about that. He is strong about delivering the gospel (preaching the gospel) and states this plainly in his book. What he addresses is the need to also live a life where others can see Christ in you. He is highly critical of people who "share the gospel" without really communicating the gospel message (he is also critical of those who may communicate the gospel message but live like the world).

Look at Metzger's outline of appropriate "friendship evangelism." He insists that it is evangelism if and only if the gospel is communicated. His criticism is when it is not communicated (when it is only "friendship"). Dr. Conway makes the same observation.

I think the uproar is about the title of his book. He may not be a Calvinist (I don't know if he is or isn't), but like you pointed out, this is not necessary to a "good" book on evangelism. He does explain the title, and it is far from what a few seem to assume. Let me know when it comes in. I have actually been impressed with the book (I did not have high expectations, but am pleasantly surprised).

 

[evangelist6589]

:thumbsup: You don't have to worry about that. He is strong about delivering the gospel (preaching the gospel) and states this plainly in his book. What he addresses is the need to also live a life where others can see Christ in you. He is highly critical of people who "share the gospel" without really communicating the gospel message (he is also critical of those who may communicate the gospel message but live like the world).

Look at Metzger's outline of appropriate "friendship evangelism." He insists that it is evangelism if and only if the gospel is communicated. His criticism is when it is not communicated (when it is only "friendship"). Dr. Conway makes the same observation.

I think the uproar is about the title of his book. He may not be a Calvinist (I don't know if he is or isn't), but like you pointed out, this is not necessary to a "good" book on evangelism. He does explain the title, and it is far from what a few seem to assume. Let me know when it comes in. I have actually been impressed with the book (I did not have high expectations, but am pleasantly surprised).

Well I have Arminian evangelism books that I like in my library and the ones I like have a huge emphasis on preaching the gospel. I guess the author just assumes that anyone that preaches on the streets with a beer in one hand and a bible in another is a hypocrite as it's just common sense. Yes he may be in favor of friendship evangelism and as someone accustomed to Ray Comfort I would naturally be against it. But reading Metzger and diving deeper into Calvinism via other authors I can see that God is not limited to one form of evangelism to draw the elect. I look forward to the book.

 

[JonC]

Well I have Arminian evangelism books that I like in my library and the ones I like have a huge emphasis on preaching the gospel. I guess the author just assumes that anyone that preaches on the streets with a beer in one hand and a bible in another is a hypocrite as it's just common sense. Yes he may be in favor of friendship evangelism and as someone accustomed to Ray Comfort I would naturally be against it. But reading Metzger and diving deeper into Calvinism via other authors I can see that God is not limited to one form of evangelism to draw the elect. I look forward to the book.

Also...evangelism does not draw the elect (IMHO, it is the internal work of God in the life of those being saved). I think that we are all "naturally against" things...it is sometimes difficult to set aside our predispositions and engage topics that we assume are contrary to our view. But...I guess we get over those presuppositions in order to grow.

BTW, I wish you the best in your efforts this weekend. I am praying God blesses your ministry as you remain faithful to His Word. I did not respond to the thread because I have no idea what I will be doing over the holiday (probably working) :tear:.

 

[evangelist6589]

Also...evangelism does not draw the elect (IMHO, it is the internal work of God in the life of those being saved). I think that we are all "naturally against" things...it is sometimes difficult to set aside our predispositions and engage topics that we assume are contrary to our view. But...I guess we get over those presuppositions in order to grow.



BTW, I wish you the best in your efforts this weekend. I am praying God blesses your ministry as you remain faithful to His Word. I did not respond to the thread because I have no idea what I will be doing over the holiday (probably working) :tear:.

Turn to page 89. Do you understand the distinction between regeneration and conversion? Do you agree with what Metzger says about Lordship earlier?

 

[JonC]

Turn to page 89. Do you understand the distinction between regeneration and conversion? Do you agree with what Metzger says about Lordship earlier?

Yes...I understand the difference between regeneration and conversion. If it helps to slow down on basic questions and perhaps venture into discussion, I will volunteer that I have taken several classes on evangelism (both undergraduate and graduate level) and have at lease a rudimentary understanding of the concepts.

I am again without the book, will you be so kind as to tell me what was said about Lordship? Of the top of my head, I do not remember anything I found disagreeable but nothing that stood out as an epiphany either. Thanks.

 

[evangelist6589]

I believe they're equal.


The opposite is also true: There are many who open their mouths and voice the gospel, but live a life of hedonism completely opposite to the message they profess.


Completely agree.

Are you going to buy the book as well?

 

[evangelist6589]

Yes...I understand the difference between regeneration and conversion. If it helps to slow down on basic questions and perhaps venture into discussion, I will volunteer that I have taken several classes on evangelism (both undergraduate and graduate level) and have at lease a rudimentary understanding of the concepts.

I am again without the book, will you be so kind as to tell me what was said about Lordship? Of the top of my head, I do not remember anything I found disagreeable but nothing that stood out as an epiphany either. Thanks.

Here we go on the conduct of a true convert. Do you think at first glance the world would think highly of Osteen's ministry? Is this not why those that witness must preach on sin and Hell?

http://www.joelosteen.com/Pages/About.aspx

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[JonC]

Here we go on the conduct of a true convert. Do you think at first glance the world would think highly of Osteen's ministry? Is this not why those that witness must preach on sin and Hell?

http://www.joelosteen.com/Pages/About.aspx

I am not sure what the world thinks of Osteen. I think many believe him representative of Christianity, and probably many do not. The danger of Osteen, however, is that he is a false teacher. He presents the type of message that Conway condemns…and I’d say Metzger condemns also as it is void of the gospel (actually it is contrary to the gospel).

Here are my questions:

From a strict Reformed view point, and using Metzger’s theology, what would be the danger of Osteen’s message to evangelism? What I mean is this, if one is in the “conversion process” as Metzger describes in Ch. 4 then that person is wrestling with the gospel message (although not quite at the end of the conversion process). He or she has a gospel knowledge and the Spirit is working in his or her life. If elect, then salvation will occur. If not, then it won’t. Why even worry about false teachers? If they are saved, then false teachers cannot lead them astray, so there is no danger there either. False teachers are therefore no issue to the evangelist…although perhaps an issue to the pastor in terms of edification and discipleship. If salvation is not dependent on the man being saved, surely it is not dependent on the false teacher conquering God’s own election of another.

***** This, BTW, is not something that I believe and I trust is not something that you believe either. I am curious as to how you would answer the question. Can false teachers lead people astray, and if so what relationship does this have to the sovereign election of God?

 

[evangelist6589]

Well get back to you tonight John C. On a certain page Metzger was listing the examples of false converts in the NT and I found that insightful. I am also reading a book on Hell by a Reformed Presbyterian as well and will start the 5th gospel soon.