Telling the truth in a misleading way

[agedman]

Then how about a cop who is working 'undercover,' who gives a false name and false occupation in order to catch a drug pusher?

What about law enforcement, which can always, without limit or repercussion, legally lie to you to catch you in a lie that they can then legally use to convict you...of lying to them?

"It is never right to do wrong."

I have a problems with typical "undercover" work done by law enforcement. More often their deception become deceit, and one who crosses that line is no better than any criminal. The ends never justify the means, no matter the situation. If one must be deceitful, that is evil.

There is a huge chasm between deceiving and being deceitful.

Sometimes God deceives, but is never deceitful - for example the prophets of Israel had taken idols "into their hearts." God states: " 9And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

God allows and even deceives those who turn away from Him that they reap what they sow.

A NT example may be that the statement by Paul that God uses the foolish and weak to confound the wise and mighty and as in 2 Thessalonians 2, "11For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness."

HOWEVER, God NEVER is deceitful.

There are dozens of verses declaring God despising and disposing those who are deceitful - that God cannot be deceitful.

It is never right to do wrong is. a principle of the Scriptures.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

"It is never right to do wrong."
...
It is never right to do wrong is. a principle of the Scriptures.

Or better yet, it is never wrong to do right.

Jesus "drove them crazy" by intentionally healing on the Sabbath.

And then there’s “God’s smuggler,” Brother Andrew (Andrew van der Bijl).

 

[Alcott]

[QUOTE="agedman, post: 2470434, member: 11131"It is never right to do wrong is. a principle of the Scriptures.[/QUOTE]

I presume, then, that you disagree with those here who say Rahab is truly a 'hero of faith.'

[Apparently the original premise of this thread has to be abandoned, or it's the end.]

 

[agedman]

I presume, then, that you disagree with those here who say Rahab is truly a 'hero of faith.'

[Apparently the original premise of this thread has to be abandoned, or it's the end.]

What. Lead you to that conclusion?

Did not God delude the Jericho folks?

Rehab deceived those who were no longer her people, but she was not deceitful. She identified and made allegiance with Israel. Such allowed her to deceive the searchers, yet remain unstained as being deceitful.

A more modern day scenario would be those who identified with the Jews - hiding them, feeding, clothing... or those who sheltered soldiers during the WW II.

 

[Alcott]

What. Lead you to that conclusion?

I could ask the question, "Is deceitfulness wrong?" and follow it up with "Is it ever right to do wrong?" Since you've already answered the latter, then answer the former.

Did not God delude the Jericho folks?

He personally, or some did so in his name?

Rehab deceived those who were no longer her people, but she was not deceitful. She identified and made allegiance with Israel. Such allowed her to deceive the searchers, yet remain unstained as being deceitful.

A more modern day scenario would be those who identified with the Jews - hiding them, feeding, clothing... or those who sheltered soldiers during the WW II.

Reconcile that with your previous quote: "The ends never justify the means, no matter the situation. If one must be deceitful, that is evil." And, as with your 'problems' with law enforcement going undercover. You apparently differentiate deception and deceit, but Merriam Webster uses the same definition.

 

[agedman]

I could ask the question, "Is deceitfulness wrong?" and follow it up with "Is it ever right to do wrong?" Since you've already answered the latter, then answer the former.



He personally, or some did so in his name?



Reconcile that with your previous quote: "The ends never justify the means, no matter the situation. If one must be deceitful, that is evil." And, as with your 'problems' with law enforcement going undercover. You apparently differentiate deception and deceit, but Merriam Webster uses the same definition.

All dictionaries conform their definitions to the popular usage of words, and better ones give a bit of etymology and part of speech.

You need to come to terms with how the word is used to understand the difference between deceit, desception, and deceitful.

How the words are used is the reason why God, as did Rahab, can and does use deceit (see above post for Scripture examples) yet abhors deceitful.

It is not obligatory on my part to explain the difference between deceit and deceitful. You are skilled enough to discern, and, It is enough that the scriptures do make such distinction.

 

[JPPT1974]

Remember the Bible is truth. And that Jesus is truth. He is sinless and perfect and paved the way for eternity. As Jesus would only tell us the truth no matter what. As that is what we need to do as His children.
Does the truth hurt yes. But in the long run, it will be well worth it.

 

[Aaron]

Then how about a cop who is working 'undercover,' who gives a false name and false occupation in order to catch a drug pusher?

The drug pusher is a liar, thief, public enemy and a tempter. Is the undercover cop bearing false witness in the sense of the commandment, and is it against his innocent neighbor?

 

[Aaron]

Remember the Bible is truth. And that Jesus is truth. He is sinless and perfect and paved the way for eternity. As Jesus would only tell us the truth no matter what. As that is what we need to do as His children.
Does the truth hurt yes. But in the long run, it will be well worth it.

It is the glory of God to hide a matter. Proverbs 25:2

 

[Alcott]

All dictionaries conform their definitions to the popular usage of words, and better ones give a bit of etymology and part of speech.

You need to come to terms with how the word is used to understand the difference between deceit, desception, and deceitful.

How the words are used is the reason why God, as did Rahab, can and does use deceit (see above post for Scripture examples) yet abhors deceitful.

It is not obligatory on my part to explain the difference between deceit and deceitful. You are skilled enough to discern, and, It is enough that the scriptures do make such distinction.

Deceit and deceitful cannot mean different things any more than wrath and wrathful-- they are just nouns and adjectives made from the nouns. And you're going to have to cite the scriptures that make that (or any) distinction.

 

[Alcott]

The drug pusher is a liar, thief, public enemy and a tempter. Is the undercover cop bearing false witness in the sense of the commandment, and is it against his innocent neighbor?

Does your explanation only make sense if you add to scripture? ..."innocent"...

 

[Aaron]

Does your explanation only make sense if you add to scripture? ..."innocent"...

Oh yeah, You're the pedantic one. Can't see the forest for the trees.

When Jesus was asked "And who is my neighbour?" Do you think He was holding out the thieves in His story as examples?

The lawless are not your neighbors.

 

[Alcott]

The lawless are not your neighbors.

Alright, anyone who has ever gotten a traffic ticket is not our neighbor. Got it.

 

[Aaron]

Alright, anyone who has ever gotten a traffic ticket is not our neighbor. Got it.

No, you DON'T got it, and you can't get it.

 

[Alcott]

No, you DON'T got it, and you can't get it.

So who are the lawless (as you say)? Those who break the law, or someone evaluated differently?

 

[agedman]

Deceit and deceitful cannot mean different things any more than wrath and wrathful-- they are just nouns and adjectives made from the nouns. And you're going to have to cite the scriptures that make that (or any) distinction.

Then you have a problem with God’s word which states “I , the Lord have deceived that prophet.” Not much wiggling and arguing with the Scripture.


Yet, there are (according to the web - which may not be factually sound) 84 verses that God cannot be deceitful.

If the Scriptures make that demarcation, then certainly your own schlorship should have little argument.

For ultimately, Scriptures state that God does allow , uses , and condones deceit, yet is not deceitful.

 

[Lodic]

I don't think lying is a sin per se. Otherwise, every fisherman who ever lived is in trouble. Likewise for every guy who's wife asks what he thinks of the new outfit / hairdo / shoes. There is a time and a place for deception. A captured soldier should not hesitate to lie to send the enemy away from his unit. If someone broke into my home, I would lie to protect my wife and kids.
The Bible tells us we are not to be false witnesses, which relates to sharing the Gospel.

 

[agedman]

It should be understood that when I posted of God’s use of “deceived” it is not God being deceitful, rather God turning the decietfulness of others upon themselves.

For example pharaoh was hard hearted (Exodus 7), and God “made the heart” harden further (Exodus 9). God was not deceitful in His dealing with pharaoh, but used the decietfulness already present to His purpose.

That principle is found in other passages as shown in the above posts.

God can and does deceive those who are deceitful, yet He is not deceitful. In effect, He uses the deciever’s own methods against the decievers.

It then is no problem when Rahab uses the same tool against those who would destroy the ones with whom she has aligned or for giving protection to those in whom the deceitful oppress.

Nor for God to command “thou shalt not murder” and yet command the whole destruction of not only the fighting men but the women, children, livestock,... God turns that which was already being done by the deceitful by deceiving them.

The prophets of Ezekiel’s day were deceitful, so when they failed to speak truthfully God said, “I, the Lord, deceived them.”

Here then is the principle:
God is not nor can He be deceitful; however, God can and does
use deceit when confronting those who are deceitful.
He turns the character of the deceitful upon themselves.

As a result, there is no violation in the principle “it is never right to do wrong.”

 

[Alcott]

All in all, it is not deceitful to use deceit. OK

 

[InTheLight]

I don't think lying is a sin per se.

The Bible tells us we are not to be false witnesses, which relates to sharing the Gospel.

Proverbs 6
16 There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

Exodus 23:1
“Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness.