Temple of God (II. Thes. 2:4)

[TCGreek]

Since it references the 'Mystery' ("that which is for a while hidden" or hidden for a time)
Paul is (for all intents and purposes) showing Satan is still working in opposition to God and Christ even if it not fully or mastifestly seen (as with Christ before the Resurrection) but he IS still operating.

But that 'Mystery' WILL BE manifested eventually, but ONLY after the Spirit of God is removed (taken out of the way).
Remember they lived their lives as if Christ was coming back tomarrow and apparently fully antisipated this. So to see it worded as if it would be soon but not yet, does not preclude God's intent of the text to be soon in accordance with HIS understanding (1 day or a 1000).

Contextually I see Paul addressing the fact that some beleive that Christ already CAME due to lies told them. Paul is giving them the assurance and understanding that this 'mystery' is still working amoung us and is NOT removed. Christ's Kingdom IS NOT yet fully established because there are yet things not accomplished in Gods plan. Thus removing the Spirit of God from the world, The Man of Sin (Anti-christ) being revealed and ruling in temporal authority over the world, and a people who will willing follow Him in direct opposition to Truth of God has already revealed to them, of which they reject this Truth that could have saved themand it is for THIS cause that they will be/are condemned/damned.

BTW, What Scripture says that the Spirit is going to be taken out from the world, or is it based on some kind of deduction?

 

[Allan]

BTW, What Scripture says that the Spirit is going to be taken out from the world, or is it based on some kind of deduction?

I think is partly both, which is what we do with any prophesy until it's fulfillment be completed and we see it clearly.
1 Thes 4, 2 Thes 2, Rev 4 and other places as well. Scripture speaks of a snatching 'away', but being snatched away from what?
The Spirit of God being 'removed' from the midst. 'Removed' why? and from the midst of what?
Why is John 'called up' to heaven when he could have easily seen the vision from where he was and already had seen a portion of it?
Which is how the other prophets saw it, from earth LOOKING up.
What other prophet had a vision in which they were called upto heaven to see the vision? Yes, they were moved about to different earthly places but who was called up to heaven like John.
And if no one else was, then what is the significance of it?
Jesus does not 'return' to the world but comes in the air to receive us (believers) unto Himself. His second coming (which is to earth - thus the second coming) is when He comes back TO Earth to establish His Kingdom of Israel.

Remember after each of these things we find the reign of the Anti-Christ coming to fruitition and a world wide unity against the One True God and unity toward Satan as god.
Look at the Greek "to be taken out of the way'. After the removing of and snatching away from.

The passage in question by you however can be read thusly:
..to become removed from (or out of) the midst...

Can Satan Rule the Whole World in Temporal Authority, while the Holy Spirit is still here INDWELLING believers who are overcomers and have authority to cast him out?? (I guess the latter part of the question depends on if you believe christian CAN cast out demon because of Christ authority in us over them)

IF the Holy SPirit must be removed from out of the 'midist', then the question must be asked - the midst of what?

Context tells us.
It tells us that directly following this 'removal or taken out of the way' the Anti-Christ is revealed (and that revealing is set forth in His rising to Temporal Ruler of the World through the authority given power of Satan).
The Holy Spirit is here holding this 'time' back. Has He always been in the world in the manner in which He is now? No, He was not yet poured out upon all flesh (Joel 2:28, Act 2:17). This pouring out was for more purposes than just convicting the world and indwelling the believer, we know another part or aspect was in the holding back the power and extent of sin and godlessness till it's proper time to be released. But there WILL come a time where He will be removed and godlessness and sin will reign unhindered unlike today or in the past (Noah's day).

Question:
Will people still be able to be saved during this time AFTER the removing and snatching away? Yes.
If so, then how were the OT saints saved if the Holy Spirit did not indwell them as NT believers are?
Or is the Indwelling necessary to be saved?
(By being servants of God and saved by faith, but not indwelt by God the Holy Spirit)

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I disagree, and by extension with many of the Reformers.

This is NOT speaking of the Church since it it will be UNBELIEVING Jews (at that time) who will build the Temple to worship God and who they ASSUME is the Messiah. Therefore they will call it that which they always have - The Temple of God. But they will see it is NOT God nor the Messiah who will enthrone himself. And ABANDON the Temple and it's sacrifices for the TRUE and CHRIST who is their suffiency of salvation and redemption.

Remember whom it is about and what it states previously in the chapter.

The Reformers just as the Catholic Church had not seen a literal Israel in 1500 years and saw no reason to assume it would ever come back because they postulated we as believers are now Israel since they did not forsee the Nation of Israel EVER being reformed again. Thus the early Reformers took with them the Catholic view of Israel and the Church (from Augustine) and modified it to some degree but did not do away with it because it was pivitol to many of their views.
WHich, guess what, is the same reason many of us hold to OUR view regarding prophetic things to come

When discussing furture things I seek to not become too dogmatic, although many have become dogmatic with me. Part of my reluctance to dogmatism in this area is my lack of understanding. For many reasons futurism seems utterly unbiblical to me, as does preterism. I think the reality of things is somewhere in the middle. Things began to be fulfilled very soon in the early church, are being fulfilled, and will be completely fulfilled. To some degree I could properly be labeled a historicist. I look at Scripture and history for a fulfillment and I must begin from the time when the prophetic Scriptures were written.

I have read the various views. The Tim Lahaye, et. viewpoint seems so ficticous to me, but it has gained a fair amount of popularity these days. I am sure the RCC is very happy with that as the proverbial fingering of them as the Man of Sin is taken away. I believe, to a large extent, that the reformers were correct. The papacy so much fits the bill it is no wonder they believed it and put it in their confessions of faith.

 

[skypair]

1. A weak paraphrase on my part.

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way"
2 Thess 2:7 (ESV)

2. What is the meaning of this expression then?

Here's my 2 cents: The "mystery of iniquity" is that the lawless one comes from within the church. "Doth already work?" Men such as Simon Magus (Paul would have doubtless heard of in the Jerusalem Council --- John who saw Simon spoke of "many A/C's) already making merchandise of the church.

IIThes 2 is all about the church. The "man of sin" is pre-GT AC; "son of perdition" is indwelt GT AC.

It is clear from the example of Laodicea that if is the church falling away in the last times. Some say "falling away" means "departure." Could be. Could be the rapture that tips it all into apostacy, following of AC/Pope/MYSTERY BABYLON harlot (Rev 2:22).

BTW, as to the OP --- it is called the "temple of God" because it is built when Elijah appears "to restore all things." In that process, they prepare to be restored to God and worship in His temple. And they will be heard twice IMO -- 1) midtrib with Russia attacking from the north (Joel 2) and 2) end of the trib the temple will be cleansed (Dan 8:13-14) and sacrifices will be resumed which is why AC attacks Jerusalem yet again.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

I think is partly both, which is what we do with any prophesy until it's fulfillment be completed and we see it clearly.
1 Thes 4, 2 Thes 2, Rev 4 and other places as well. Scripture speaks of a snatching 'away', but being snatched away from what?
The Spirit of God being 'removed' from the midst. 'Removed' why? and from the midst of what?

1. Quite a leap since Scripture actually doesn't say such.

Why is John 'called up' to heaven when he could have easily seen the vision from where he was and already had seen a portion of it?
Which is how the other prophets saw it, from earth LOOKING up.
What other prophet had a vision in which they were called upto heaven to see the vision? Yes, they were moved about to different earthly places but who was called up to heaven like John.
And if no one else was, then what is the significance of it?
Jesus does not 'return' to the world but comes in the air to receive us (believers) unto Himself. His second coming (which is to earth - thus the second coming) is when He comes back TO Earth to establish His Kingdom of Israel.

Remember after each of these things we find the reign of the Anti-Christ coming to fruitition and a world wide unity against the One True God and unity toward Satan as god.
Look at the Greek "to be taken out of the way'. After the removing of and snatching away from.

The passage in question by you however can be read thusly:
..to become removed from (or out of) the midst...

Can Satan Rule the Whole World in Temporal Authority, while the Holy Spirit is still here INDWELLING believers who are overcomers and have authority to cast him out?? (I guess the latter part of the question depends on if you believe christian CAN cast out demon because of Christ authority in us over them)

IF the Holy SPirit must be removed from out of the 'midist', then the question must be asked - the midst of what?

2. You are forced to ask this question because of what you believe, but is it scriptural?

Context tells us.
It tells us that directly following this 'removal or taken out of the way' the Anti-Christ is revealed (and that revealing is set forth in His rising to Temporal Ruler of the World through the authority given power of Satan).
The Holy Spirit is here holding this 'time' back. Has He always been in the world in the manner in which He is now? No, He was not yet poured out upon all flesh (Joel 2:28, Act 2:17). This pouring out was for more purposes than just convicting the world and indwelling the believer, we know another part or aspect was in the holding back the power and extent of sin and godlessness till it's proper time to be released. But there WILL come a time where He will be removed and godlessness and sin will reign unhindered unlike today or in the past (Noah's day).

Question:
Will people still be able to be saved during this time AFTER the removing and snatching away? Yes.

3. In both the OT and NT, saved people have always been saved after a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit (Rom 2:29).

If so, then how were the OT saints saved if the Holy Spirit did not indwell them as NT believers are?

4. This is an either/or fallacy. Here'sa third view: People were circumcisized by the Spirit within.

Or is the Indwelling necessary to be saved?
(By being servants of God and saved by faith, but not indwelt by God the Holy Spirit)

5. David was indwelt with the Spirit (Ps 51:11).

 

[TCGreek]

Here's my 2 cents: The "mystery of iniquity" is that the lawless one comes from within the church. "Doth already work?" Men such as Simon Magus (Paul would have doubtless heard of in the Jerusalem Council --- John who saw Simon spoke of "many A/C's) already making merchandise of the church.

IIThes 2 is all about the church. The "man of sin" is pre-GT AC; "son of perdition" is indwelt GT AC.

It is clear from the example of Laodicea that if is the church falling away in the last times. Some say "falling away" means "departure." Could be. Could be the rapture that tips it all into apostacy, following of AC/Pope/MYSTERY BABYLON harlot (Rev 2:22).

BTW, as to the OP --- it is called the "temple of God" because it is built when Elijah appears "to restore all things." In that process, they prepare to be restored to God and worship in His temple. And they will be heard twice IMO -- 1) midtrib with Russia attacking from the north (Joel 2) and 2) end of the trib the temple will be cleansed (Dan 8:13-14) and sacrifices will be resumed which is why AC attacks Jerusalem yet again.

skypair

Thanks, but must think on it some.

 

[TCGreek]

In his classic work, Things to Come, J. Dwight Pentecost say that to teach from 2 Thess 2:7 that the Spirit would be taken out at the Tribulation is foreign to the truth.

"So, in the tribulation period, the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, will do the work of regeneration as he did when God was previously dealing with Israel, but without an indwelling ministry" (Things to Come, p.271).

 

[Allan]

1. Quite a leap since Scripture actually doesn't say such.

First let me state, I did not convey adiquately what I ment by the Spirit being taken out of the world, since I do not beleive He will be removed in such a manner as to not be here at all. The Spirits removal is connected with Church removal before the pouring out of Gods wrath which we are not appointed to.

No such leap at all
Scripture doesn't actually say anything about God decreeing mans fall, yet you believe happened. Scripture doesn't specifically make the statement about God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit being three and yet one, Yet you believe that. Why? Because the rest of the scriptures attest to it, right.
So it is with this. There is much more to this than just a verse and that is why I made my answer somewhat simple, assuming you had at least looked into dispensationalism about this portion. If I was wrong I'm sorry and will better present a more concise answer in the future.

Yet I am no scholar of prophetic things so please do not assume my statements are authoritive nor definitive rearding Dispen's views. While I do know the despensationists view and agree with it, I don't assume we know or are even to know all things concerning. As I stated in another thread. That is Gods to deal with and He has given us our charge to deal with. We can muse about it, contemplete it (and are supposed to) but we are not to be dogmatic about it. I speak from my view and how I see it, nothing more.

2. You are forced to ask this question because of what you believe, but is it scriptural?

No, we are forced to ask those questions because that is what any good bible student is to do.

So yes I believe it IS biblical. Why are believers 'snatched away', why is the Holy Spirit removed (taken away) from the midst, why was John's vision of heaven in relation to end times different from all other prophets in that he was taken up to heaven? These are question that SHOULD be asked of anyone studying the scripture. But in dealing with prophetic things we need to look at the types provided to see if there is a comparable illistration regarding these phrases which are in question that speak to a removing of believers AND the bringing forth of His wrath.

Look at Noah for example.

3. In both the OT and NT, saved people have always been saved after a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit (Rom 2:29).

I actaully tried to delete this portion but was to late in so doing. Reason: I was kinda speaking to this issue after discussing it on another board with another person. In it I was bringing up the fact that for the OT saints to be saved one does not need to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but for the NT saints we are. You just got the over flow

4. This is an either/or fallacy. Here'sa third view: People were circumcisized by the Spirit within.

There was NO Spirit 'indwelling'them in the OT, that is just a fallacy. The Spirit of God came upon people and left as well. He did not indwell people until AFTER Christ's accention since He could not come and fulfill that part of His ministry until Christ Jesus be 'removed'. The Holy Spirit indwells us as part of the New Covenant .

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

But we see no indwelling of the Spirit up till the accension of Christ.

5. David was indwelt with the Spirit (Ps 51:11).

Nope. Not even close. You are bring assumption to the text.
"Do not take Your Spirit from me", does not imply the Spirit of God indwelling David. Matthew Herny puts it thusly in this excert of his commentary on Psa 51:

Take not thy Holy Spirit from me. He knew he had by his sin grieved the Spirit and provoked him to with draw, and that because he also was flesh God might justly have said that his Spirit should no more strive with him nor work upon him, Gen. 6:3. This he dreads more than any thing. We are undone if God take his Holy Spirit from us. Saul was a sad instance of this. How exceedingly sinful, how exceedingly miserable, was he, when the Spirit of the Lord had departed from him!

The Holy Spirit was 'with' David but not 'indwelling' David.
David being cast out refers to codemnation but removing of God's Spirit refers to him remaining in Gods favor.
Just as Mr. Henry portrays the Spirit of God was with other people but left them as well. To assume the Spirit of God being with them was salvation (based on the assumption it means indwelling) then you now have to explain why they lost their salvation.
Remember Scripture states we know we are His (saved) becuase we have His Spirit. Guess what, if it leaves us we are no longer saved for we are no longer His and this is SPECIFIC to the 'indwelling' of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Allan]

In his classic work, Things to Come, J. Dwight Pentecost say that to teach from 2 Thess 2:7 that the Spirit would be taken out at the Tribulation is foreign to the truth.

"So, in the tribulation period, the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, will do the work of regeneration as he did when God was previously dealing with Israel, but without an indwelling ministry" (Things to Come, p.271).

I agree, and I previously stated I did not adiquately convey what I meant by stating the Spirit is taken out of the world.

His removal is connected both to His unleashing of man and demons to be unrestrained and also to the rapture which the Church is taken out of the way. But not that He will not be here at all.