Temporal Justification

[Darrell C]

The Bible is a Catholic source, it didn’t come from Protestantism.

That's funny, ApostolicTraditiion begins with both the Apostles as well as laymen (plow-boys) expounding from the Word of God that certainly did not originate from the Catholic Church.

You can't even be honest about when the Catholic Church began. You keep appealing to 2,000 years of history and it simply isn't there.

We know that because the Apostles and the plow-boys did precisely what the Catholic Church forbids her servants today, and has done so for roughly a little over 16 centuries. I will give you that, she has been around a long time. That you will not own up to what is blatant corruption shows the desperation to justify your religion.

Now, will you explain Indulgences as they originated out of the error of the Catholic Church, or, will you justify selling remission of sin for money, and show where the Apostles or plow-boys of the true early church did so?

A straight answer, Cathode.



God bless.

 

[Cathode]

The distinction is meaningless: if one is forgiven the penalty of sin then one is forgiven his sin.

You are the one that needs to get the facts straight.

Here it is again: the Catholic Church sold Indulgences for the remission of sins (which extends to the remission for the penalty of that sin, the source for the penalty).

Hence they sold remission of sin for money.

Hence they departed from "Apostolic Tradition" and makes themselves liars because there is no such "apostolic tradition."

It's that simple, those are the facts.


God bless.

Some Italian clerics abused indulgences for money hundreds of years ago, but it was never a teaching of the Church. It was a disciplinary matter and was stamped out.

Hardly an excuse for inciting the burning of churches and monasteries and killing over 130,000 men women and children in Germany, and fracturing Christian unity. Totally unjustified.

 

[Darrell C]

Some Italian clerics abused indulgences for money hundreds of years ago, but it was never a teaching of the Church. It was a disciplinary matter and was stamped out.

Hardly an excuse for inciting the burning of churches and monasteries and killing over 130,000 men women and children in Germany, and fracturing Christian unity. Totally unjustified.

Thank you, Cathode—for being honest enough to admit that there has been corruption in the Catholic Church and her leadership.

Now I ask you—why would you not think it possible today?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Some Italian clerics abused indulgences for money hundreds of years ago, but it was never a teaching of the Church. It was a disciplinary matter and was stamped out.

Hardly an excuse for inciting the burning of churches and monasteries and killing over 130,000 men women and children in Germany, and fracturing Christian unity. Totally unjustified.

I would very much agree with you: people calling themselves Christians committing murder. It kind of brings the reality of the profession into doubt.

But let's go back to some things you said earlier:

Luther began the lawlessness but one day that lawlessness will culminate in one man.

What you are saying agrees with Luther's rejection of Indulgences and the abuses that followed, to include the remission of sins for those in Purgatory.

And again, remission of the penalty for sin is also the remission of sin itself.

Luther came up with the idea that scripture interprets itself, a deadly error in the first instance and an obvious nonsense.

Again, your defense of Indulgences is eerily similar to Luther's view.

No theological question is settled in Protestantism.

Seems like the theological difference concerning Indulgences was. For both sides.

The Catholic Church determined and established the Canon of Scripture to be understood in the light of ancient Apostolic teaching.

And again, explain indulgences.

Trace them back to the Word of God and the Apostles' doctrine and practice.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

“Of course, you would need to be a Priest to address my error, right? Wrong. You have a responsibility to care for my eternal destiny. Don't you? Or does your membership in the church remove that responsibility?”

Right, so you are an advocate of the self shepherding sheep theory?

We just follow ancient Traditional Apostolic interpretations of scripture not our noses. That’s guaranteed to end in trouble.

Again, are you a Priest?

Are you among the leadership of the Catholic Church that does have authority?


God bless.

 

[Cathode]

Thank you, Cathode—for being honest enough to admit that there has been corruption in the Catholic Church and her leadership.

Now I ask you—why would you not think it possible today?


God bless.

Sure, the Catholic Church is full of sinners, we aren’t perfect like Protestants. Peter our first pope cut a dudes ear off, and denied Christ three times.

So being a sinner myself I feel most comfortable in the Catholic Church. And when I hear of corruption I kind of expect it, it’s been a problem for 2000 years.

 

[Darrell C]

The Bible is a Catholic source, it didn’t come from Protestantism.

It didn't come from Catholicism, either.


God bless.

 

[Cathode]

It didn't come from Catholicism, either.


God bless.

The Catholic Church determined the Canon of Scripture, that’s what it does, it canonises things.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
Thank you, Cathode—for being honest enough to admit that there has been corruption in the Catholic Church and her leadership.

Now I ask you—why would you not think it possible today?


Sure, the Catholic Church is full of sinners, we aren’t perfect like Protestants. Peter our first pope cut a dudes ear off, and denied Christ three times.

So being a sinner myself I feel most comfortable in the Catholic Church. And when I hear of corruption I kind of expect it, it’s been a problem for 2000 years.

We aren't talking about the congregation/laity/plow-boys, Cathode, we are talking about the leadership of the Catholic Church yo maintain are the only ones able to properly interpret Scripture and pronounce sound doctrine and practice.

And they have been found to be corrupt at times.

Explain that. Answer the question: why don't you think that leadership can still suffer corruption in doctrine and practice?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The Catholic Church determined the Canon of Scripture, that’s what it does, it canonises things.

Then perhaps you should adjust your statement to "The Catholic Church established which books and what order they were to be in."

I reject the Apocrypha, so I don't accept the Catholic Bible.

And that is an entirely different discussion from what we are looking at now. It is evasion of the topic, but then, that's all you can do, because your mouth has been stopped.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Peter our first pope cut a dudes ear off, and denied Christ three times.

Peter was yet unregenerate when he tried to keep Christ from the Cross.

Remember, Scripture teaches that the Gospel of Christ was a mystery, and was not revealed to men in past Ages and Generations.

That includes the Age of Law.

So appealing to something that Peter did before he was even baptized into Christ has no validity as a justification for your own sin, or the corruption of the leadership of the Catholic Church.

That is why Peter denied Christ, because he first denied the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Christ Himself:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Scripture defines itself, Cathode.

Here Peter is given the Gospel (v.21) and rejects it.

That is because he is expecting the physical fulfillment of Prophecy, which very much promised Israel would be restored. In that Kingdom men would live longer lives, and the enmity between animals and between man and animals would cease.

Note in v.21 that it is at this time the Lord began to give them the Gospel.

Yet when Peter is Baptized with the Holy Ghost by Christ at Pentecost he begins immediately to preach the Gospel.

That is the statement of Scripture. And it still remains a mystery to most, because they refuse to know the Scriptures that they might not err as the spiritual leaders of Christ's Day did.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Thank you, Cathode—for being honest enough to admit that there has been corruption in the Catholic Church and her leadership.

I want to point out, Cathode, I am not advocating for the Protestant or Evangelical churches, I am advocating for the Doctrine and Practice of the Word of God.

Corruption is in all groups. None have maintained a flawless history, and none ever will. not until the flesh is redeemed.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Some Italian clerics abused indulgences for money hundreds of years ago, but it was never a teaching of the Church. It was a disciplinary matter and was stamped out.

Was it not a Catholic Pope (Sixtus IV) that extended Indulgences to those in purgatory?

Trying to ascribe guilt to underlings in this criminal activity simply isn't going to fly.

And the "stamping out" of this abuse is precisely Luther's intentions, so again you are found to be in agreement with Luther's view and again guilty of violating your own principles you maintain are taught by the Catholic Church.

What say you, Cathode?


God bless.

 

[Campion]

Some Italian clerics abused indulgences for money hundreds of years ago, but it was never a teaching of the Church. It was a disciplinary matter and was stamped out.

Hardly an excuse for inciting the burning of churches and monasteries and killing over 130,000 men women and children in Germany, and fracturing Christian unity. Totally unjustified.

Exactly. Furthermore, Luther would later admit at the end of his life that when he started his revolt, he did not even really know what an indulgence was! (cf. Luther, Hans Worsts, 1541). They were merely a convenient catalyst to begin his revolt.

 

[Darrell C]

Exactly. Furthermore, Luther would later admit at the end of his life that when he started his revolt, he did not even really know what an indulgence was! (cf. Luther, Hans Worsts, 1541). They were merely a convenient catalyst to begin his revolt.

I guess you have never bothered to read the 95 Theses.

Martin Luther was still a Catholic when he called out the error that the Catholic Church agreed was error.

So you guys have a serious problem condemning Luther's teachings.

I will ask again, are you a priest or a plow-boy, Campion?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Exactly. Furthermore, Luther would later admit at the end of his life that when he started his revolt, he did not even really know what an indulgence was! (cf. Luther, Hans Worsts, 1541). They were merely a convenient catalyst to begin his revolt.

Do you also receive an indulgence from reading in your Bible, Campion?

Would this not mean that you are working to achieve remission for the penalty of your sins?

And I'd really like an answer from both of you as to whether you are priests or plow-boys.


God bless.

 

[Cathode]

Exactly. Furthermore, Luther would later admit at the end of his life that when he started his revolt, he did not even really know what an indulgence was! (cf. Luther, Hans Worsts, 1541). They were merely a convenient catalyst to begin his revolt.

I didn’t know that, it’s a heavy thing for damage done.

 

[Campion]

I didn’t know that, it’s a heavy thing for damage done.

Indeed. Luther based his revolt initially on something he really knew nothing about. Indulgences provided the perfect catalyst to begin his revolution.

 

[Campion]

I guess you have never bothered to read the 95 Theses.

Martin Luther was still a Catholic when he called out the error that the Catholic Church agreed was error.

So you guys have a serious problem condemning Luther's teachings.

I will ask again, are you a priest or a plow-boy, Campion?


God bless.

No, I have never read Luther's Dissputatio pro Declaratione Virtutis Indulgentiarum . ( <--- Sarcasm)

Luther actually contradicts his own later condemnations written in his Disputatio! (e.g. #'s 41, 43, 44, 51, 73 for starters.)

Luther later admitted at the end of his life he didn't even know what an indulgence was. They were but a convenient tool to begin his revolution.

 

[Campion]

Do you also receive an indulgence from reading in your Bible, Campion?

Would this not mean that you are working to achieve remission for the penalty of your sins?

And I'd really like an answer from both of you as to whether you are priests or plow-boys.


God bless.

One can receive an indulgence from reading the Bible, yes.

You too believe in working to achieve remission for a penalty of sin whether you admit it or not. For unless you plan on sticking around until your "Rapture", you will suffer death, which is the working of the ULTIMATE PENALTY FOR YOUR SIN.

Not sure what a plow boy is. Regardless, I don't give out personal information to strangers on internet forums.