Temporal Salvation?

[NetChaplain]

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

 

[AustinC]

I don't know how to answer this as I believe Jesus confirms the security of the persons God gives him in John 10.

I have an LCMS colleague who believes that God gives persons faith to believe, but humans can, later, walk away from God and thus lose their salvation. I've tried to get him to provide the logic of such a position, but he just avoids it. You'll need some of the semi-pelagians on this site to answer.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

OSAS before heaven is non-existent in the Bible. Only once the believer is in Heaven are they "eternally saved', but before then, down here, people can change sides at any time they will (though it be not God's will that they be lost).

Salvation is "in Christ Jesus".

2Ti_2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

Thus the entire point of Hebrews 6.

Salvation comes by God's grace through faith (and that being a gift from God to usward):

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.​

Our part is to exercise the faith given by God's grace, and to work "out", while God works "in":

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.​

Salvation is a co-partnership with God. God does not tow anyone to heaven against their God given will. God's salvation is always based in conditions set forth by God:

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;​

Please take notice that the text does not say that "Jesus became the author of eternal salvation [period]".

 

[Alofa Atu]

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

OSAS before heaven is non-existent in the Bible. Only once the believer is in Heaven are they "eternally saved', but before then, down here, people can change sides at any time they will (though it be not God's will that they be lost).

Saul was "turned into another man" (1 Sam. 10:6) and God had given him "another heart" (1 Sam. 10:9), and it was the LORD (JEHOVAH) that "anoint[ed]" (1 Sam. 10:1; 1 Sam. 15:1) him, and "set [him] up" (1 Sam. 15:11) and the "Spirit of God came upon him" (1 Sam. 10:10) and he "prophesied" (1 Sam. 10:10) among the prophets, for "God was with [him]" (1 Sam. 10:7), and the one who "sent [him]" (1 Sam. 15:18), for at this time, he "was little in [his] own sight" (1 Sam. 15:17), for "the LORD looketh upon the heart" (1 Sam. 16:7) even of Saul, for Saul knew the name of the "LORD" (1 Sam. 15:13) and "worshiped" (1 Sam. 15:31) God.

However, though Saul for a while was "another man", having "another heart", and the "Spirit of God", being at that time and for awhile "little in [his] own sight" (1 Sam. 15:17), he did not continue to follow and obey the voice of the LORD and keep his Law and so "he is turned back from following [God], and hath not performed [The LORD's] commandments" (1 Sam. 15:11), grieved away the Holy Ghost, and committed the unpardonable sin, and "the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul" (1 Sam. 16:14), and later because he refused to turn back (repent) to the LORD, "Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it" (1 Chron. 10:13).

Men have the freedom to "turn back from following" God at any time, even after being given "another heart".

Deut. 7:4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Deut. 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;​

This is not only in the OT, but in the NT also:

Acts 4:23-37, 5:1-11.

Ananias and Sapphira were among "the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul" (Act. 4:32), and those who were "assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness" (Act. 4:31). Thy had claimed, as with all the others present, "ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common" (Act. 4:32), and "and great grace was upon them all" (Act. 4:33). Many of the persons present, "were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold" (Act. 4:34) and in so doing, "laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need" (Act. 4:35). A specific example of this among the believers who acted rightly in honesty, was "Joses" (Act. 4:36), who, "Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet." (Act. 4:36), and did not attempt to withhold anything, but gave all as promised (having vowed before God and all).

However, we are also given a contrast, of those among "them that believed" (Act. 4:32), once "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Act. 4:31), as "Joses" (Act. 4:36) was, and also made such a vow before "God" (Act. 5:4) and all, to "[sell] a possession" (Act. 5:1) and to "[bring] the prices of the things that were sold" (Act. 4:34), but instead of being faithful in their vow they had made, "Ananias, with Sapphira his wife" (Act. 5:1) decided to "[keep] back part of the price" (Act. 5:2) and "[bring only] a certain part" (Act. 5:2), seeking to hide their deed from the believers, while being noted among the believers as faithful to their vow. They had allowed "satan" to "[fill their] heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land" (Act. 5:3), and in so doing, "not lied unto men, but unto God" (Act. 5:4), even having "agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord" (Act. 5:9), and thus grieved away the Holy Ghost (allowing satan in), and committed the unpardonable sin against God, and so died in their sin, and "gave up the ghost" (Act. 5:5,10), and so "great fear came upon all the church" (Act. 5:11) and all that likewise heard it.

Peter was given information of Ananias and Sapphira's "hearts" (Act. 5:3,4) by the Holy Ghost (Act. 5:3), even the "Spirit of the Lord" (Act. 5:9), being "God" (Act. 5:4), for the Holy Ghost can share portions of His omniscience when needful.

This is a lesson for "all the church" (Act. 5:11), in that, just because a person at one time in their life "believed" (Act. 4:32), and was "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Act. 4:31), does not mean that they cannot of their own free will choose to walk away from God, or to cease from heeding the Holy Ghost, allowing satan in to cause eternal ruin. Sin is very serious.

This is why it is written:

Act. 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;​

Indeed, as both examples were given (OT: Saul, 1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13, and NT: Ananias and Sapphira, Acts 4:23-37, 5:1-11), which show that a person can turn away from their salvation, and become eternally lost.

John speaks about the sin unto the eternal (second) death. Not physical death. Notice the words, "I do not say that he shall pray for it" (1 Jhn. 5:16). Why? Because that sin which grieves away the Holy Ghost, "never hath forgiveness" (Mar. 3:29), which even King David knew, which is why He prayed, after his own sin with Bathsheba and the killing of Uriah, "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." (Psa. 51:11), because David knew to pray, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression." (Psa. 19:13), which "great transgression" is the unpardonable sin.

1 Jhn. 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.​

The sin not unto death, are those sins, which are committed before the blaspheming away of the Holy Ghost. However, Ananias and Sapphira had grieved away the Holy Ghost, and as such, "satan" filled them, as was done in King Saul's case. No one in those places prayed for them, for their forgiveness, for the Holy Ghost already told Peter their hearts. Read it. They are eternally lost.

 

[NetChaplain]

OSAS before heaven is non-existent in the Bible. Only once the believer is in Heaven are they "eternally saved',

Hi and thanks for your instructional comments, but I don't think we can get passed these truths: Jhn 5:24; 1Jo 3:14;;5:13.

It's my understanding that these truths are for the purpose of being certain and secure, in order to grow spiritually, without which there is nothing on which to base anything encouraging.

God bless!

 

[NetChaplain]

I don't know how to answer this as I believe Jesus confirms the security of the persons God gives him in John 10.

Hi and appreciate your reply! The primary truism about faith in God is that one who profess to have faith and later professes to not have faith is merely confused. One can think they may believe, but nobody can non-believe if they truly believe, which would indicate that they just never believed.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Hi and thanks for your instructional comments, but I don't think we can get passed these truths: Jhn 5:24; 1Jo 3:14;;5:13.

It's my understanding that these truths are for the purpose of being certain and secure, in order to grow spiritually, without which there is nothing on which to base anything encouraging.

God bless!

John 5:24, key active word "believeth". Notice the "eth" part.

1 John 3:14 is tied to John 5:24. The "door" that ones passes through is Jesus Christ. One may leave through, just as they came in - Hebrews 6, and the examples I gave (which you did not address).

1 John 5:13 is written to those who (key word) "believe" (presently), not to those who "believe for a while" and then have presently left Christ Jesus.

Luk_8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
​

Perhaps instead of sniping and leaving, you might actually stick around and see that what you have taught in the OP is actually blaspheming God's character.

 

[Alofa Atu]

... nobody can non-believe if they truly believe, which would indicate that they just never believed.

That is the lie of the devil. Did Lucifer once believe? Yes/no?

 

[NetChaplain]

That is the lie of the devil. Did Lucifer once believe? Yes/no?

The term "believe" in God is not the same as believe about God. "The devils believe there is one God and tremble" (Jas 2:19), i.e. the devils believe (knows) there is no other god and that He is the only God in existence. This is believe about God, not in God, as in trusting Him.

I appreciate your comments and I believe you're sincere concerning them, but though we differ in our understanding I would also recommend avoiding accusations (blaspheming God's character, #7, last paragraph) which is a trait of the Enemy and not us (Rev 12:10).

 

[Alofa Atu]

The term "believe" in God is not the same as believe about God. "The devils believe there is one God and tremble" (Jas 2:19), i.e. the devils believe (knows) there is no other god and that He is the only God in existence. This is believe about God, not in God, as in trusting Him.

I am not saying that John 5:24 (etc, like Luke 8:13) refers to simply 'knowledge' about God. It specifically refers to that trust (faith in) God. Persons can believe (have faith in, trust, etc) in God, and yet still (not of necessity, but of possibility) come to a point, no longer believe and become lost, and worse off. You misread my reply.

I appreciate your comments and I believe you're sincere concerning them, but though we differ in our understanding I would also recommend avoiding accusations (blaspheming God's character, #7, last paragraph) which is a trait of the Enemy and not us (Rev 12:10).

Facts are facts, and your theology blasphemes God's character. I will defend God's character against such by the Bible.

 

[NetChaplain]

I am not saying that John 5:24 (etc, like Luke 8:13) refers to simply 'knowledge' about God. It specifically refers to that trust (faith in) God. Persons can believe (have faith in, trust, etc) in God, and yet still (not of necessity, but of possibility) come to a point, no longer believe and become lost, and worse off. You misread my reply.

Facts are facts, and your theology blasphemes God's character. I will defend God's character against such by the Bible.

It's obvious that we won't be getting anywhere with one another, and God's blessings to you!

 

[Alofa Atu]

It's obvious that we won't be getting anywhere with one another, and God's blessings to you!

That's because you refuse the scripture in what it says before you, for your vain tradition (OSAS).

 

[Alofa Atu]

What's worse, is that you post this same heresy on all the boards owned by the same company.

 

[NetChaplain]

I don't know how to answer this as I believe Jesus confirms the security of the persons God gives him in John 10.

I have an LCMS colleague who believes that God gives persons faith to believe, but humans can, later, walk away from God and thus lose their salvation. I've tried to get him to provide the logic of such a position, but he just avoids it. You'll need some of the semi-pelagians on this site to answer.

There are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.

Thanks for your input and God bless!

 

[Alofa Atu]

There are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.

Thanks for your input and God bless!

No. James 2:18 has nothing to say about those who "for a while believe":

Luk_8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.​

[1] Victorious believers amongst mankind, once dead in trespasses and sin, but made alive through Christ Jesus, which continue to believe and endure unto the end:

Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

[2] Those amongst mankind who never believed, and never had a part:

Rom_15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

Joh_6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

2Co_6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

1Ti_5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.​

[3] Those amongst mankind who merely profess belief, but do not actually believe and show no actual corresponding works of true faith, or belief:

Luk_6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

[4] Those amongst mankind who actually were renewed and believe for a while, and have corresponding works of faith, but for whatever reason of their own, they choose to cease from so believing, and are in a worse condition than when they hadn't believed before:

1Ti_5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Luk_8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

The 'knowledge' of 2 Peter 2:20,21 is full understanding, and experience (see Matthew 11:27, Mark 5:30, etc).​

[5] The fallen Angelic hosts who once believed, like Lucifer, but chose to remain in sin and forever fell away, and merely know that God exists, but no longer believe in His goodness:

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
​

[6] Then there is the case of Adam, which is slightly differing than Lucifer, who didn't have the fullness of knowledge that Lucifer had in Heaven, and was able to be renewed by the Holy Ghost through Jesus Christ by the grace of God and believed unto the end.

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Gen_5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Gen_3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

As I said. You do not know your Bible. Your theology blasphemes God, by making God into a spiritual rapist.

 

[NetChaplain]

As I said. You do not know your Bible. Your theology blasphemes God, by making God into a spiritual rapist.

I don't mind communicating with you, but we can't until you loose the desire for using accusative comments!

 

[mailmandan]

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[NetChaplain]

Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Hi, and Amen! If it's not saved for all eternity, it's not salvation, because that's what it means. Other wise you cannot be encouraged, having to wonder all the time!

 

[Dave G]

No. James 2:18 has nothing to say about those who "for a while believe":

But these do:

Matthew 13.
Mark 4.
" They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." ( Luke 8:13 ).


May God bless you in your studies, sir.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Hi, and Amen! If it's not saved for all eternity, it's not salvation, because that's what it means. Other wise you cannot be encouraged, having to wonder all the time!

That's a confusion of assurance and salvation. The two are not the same thing.