Temporary Salvationist 1-8

[standingfirminChrist]

It is the ME theology that is , as you say, 'Bonehead Theology'. Christ's body is not divided, nor will it ever be. Satan has been trying since his being cast out of heaven to divide the body of Christ, to no avail. Why try to continue his work?

 

[James_Newman]

Brother Herb, I promised I would come back to discuss these scriptures with you. I will just break them up into smaller groups to make it more manageable.

1. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. -- Matt. 7:21

Not everyone that says Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, because not everyone that is religious that says, "Lord, Lord," is "saved" or born again. Notice, in this context, that Jesus says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" - not "I knew you and then lost you." (Matt. 7:23) The "will" of the Father is for the lost to believe unto salvation and for God to “LOSE NOTHING,” who do so (John 6:39, 40).

2. And five of them (ten virgins) were WISE [saved servants] and five were FOOLISH [unsaved servants]. They that were foolish TOOK THEIR LAMPS, and TOOK NIL [in their vessels] with them: But the wise TOOK OIL IN THEIR VESSELS with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And . . . there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh (for the wedding party not the bride-after the rapture) . . . Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so . . . go . . . buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were READY went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I KNOW YOU NOT. -- Matt. 25:1-12

This parable (concerning, possibly, the future tribulation, when Christ comes for the WEDDING PARTY and not the Bride) shows five UNPREPARED and UNREADY virgins that do not have oil (typical of the Holy Spirit) in their VESSELS. Saved folks are "prepared," having the Spirit. If not, they are none of His (Rom 8:9). Notice that Christ did not know these impostors. Both the foolish and the wise virgins took their lamps, the lamp or God’s WORD being a lamp unto their feet and a light unto their path. Yet the problem was no oil in the foolish virgins’ VESSELS.

This is the 'they aren't really saved' defense. I'm sure that this will be your argument anywhere the bible appears to address believers with strong warnings. And this is really the crux of the matter. Can a person be saved and not be obedient? I think you would at least pretend to believe in salvation by grace through faith. But you teach a works based salvation when you deny that these passages are talking about saved people. What must I do to be saved?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to you, Herb, I don't get saved by believing on what Jesus has done, I get saved by doing the will of the Father. Bill Jackson has an excelent web site that you should look at. It is www.dodone.org and he explains the difference between do and done. If you could see the difference between the kingdom and eternal salvation, you wouldn't have to deny the grace of God.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Unless your not doing the will of the father, right Herb? You somehow tie 'knowing' (as in 'depart from me, I never knew you' or 'verily I say unto you, I know you not') with eternal salvation. Where does the bible say that a person has to 'know' Jesus to be saved?

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The truth, Herb, is that the difference between you and a 'lose-your-salvationist' Armenian is academic. You both believe that if a person is not keeping God's commandments, that person is not going to be saved in eternity. You only differ on whether they ever were saved to begin with.

3. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord . . . I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant . . . Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

For unto every one that HATH shall be GIVEN, and he shall have abundance: but from him that HATH NOT shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the UNPROFITABLE servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -- Matt. 25:24-30

False teachers infer and even state that the servants in this parable are saved servants, who become wicked servants, by not using the given talents, burying them, and then going to hell for it. No doubt, many wicked, unsaved servants will go to hell, not taking advantage of the "free gift" offered to them. The "lose your salvationist" mind imagines that only saved people can be God’s servants. The truth of the matter is that everyone is a servant OF God (but not necessarily a servant "TO" God (Rom. 6:22), for He is Lord and King of ALL, whether they acknowledge it or not. Both faithful, saved servants and wicked, unsaved servants (him that hath not) are viewed in this parable. Cyrus in the O.T. was God’s servant. Note that Jacob and Israel, who surely were not all saved are said to be God’s servants, and in this time future time frame, the tribulation Jews will not be all saved but will still bear the name “servant.”

All men are servants? That is your answer to the unprofitable servant? OK, then what about Luke 19? Who were the enemies in verse 27, the citizens from verse 14?

Luke 19
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

What is the difference between these people, and the wicked one-pound servant? The servant was saved.

Why do you hate free grace so much, brother? Are you afraid that some filthy sinner might end up sitting next to you for all eternity? For some reason, I can't help but think of Luke 18:11.

 

[James_Newman]

4. There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive . . . in the world to come eternal life. -- Mark 10:29,30

This passage is a real boo-boo for any "lose your salvationist.” If such a one's implications are correct to gain eternal life or to keep eternal life, you would be required to leave your mother, father, children, wife, and so forth for the gospel's sake either to gain or maintain eternal life. Still, this passage as others are instructive, informational passages and not conditional passages nor conditions for salvation.

I would think this would be a problem passage for any works-salvationist also, if indeed it is a problem for lose-your-salvationists. But for ME proponents, it is simply a statement of encouragement. It certainly doesnt state that these things are requirements for obtaining eternal life in the world to come.

5. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY. -- Luke 8:13

Either this is a saved person or a lost person, but it cannot be a saved person, who gets lost (even though the word "believe" is used). Devils believe and tremble and aren't saved, because their belief is merely intellectual and does not involve trust (as is the case with many "supposed" believers). Still, the term "falling" or "falling away," like "death," does not demand nor is it synonymous with "hell." Also, hell or losing salvation is not even mentioned. It must be read into the passage not out of it.

It's a saved person.

6. For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, IF they should FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God asfresh, and put him to an open shame. . . BUT . . . — Hebrews 6:4-6

If this passage teaches anything, it teaches that is impossible to be "renewed AGAIN unto repentance." If a saved person is meant by this passage, who becomes lost again, he cannot be renewed to repentance or re-saved! “Lose your salvationists” and “Christians in hellers” use these kind of proof texts to prove their view. Are saved people in this proof text? Absolutely! Does this passage teach that the impossibilty of saved people repenting after FALLING AWAY. Absolutely! Then, Herb Evans is wrong. Absolutely not! Paul is teaching the very opposite in this passage. Paul is using a hypothetical illustration with a hypothetical “IF” to show what would happen IF a Christian could fall from salvation. How do you know that? Because Paul continues by saying, “But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION, THOUGH WE THUS SPEAK” (Heb. 6:9).

But Herb, we just said that falling away didn't have to mean losing our eternal salvation. Now if we rightly divide the term salvation, and realize that Paul is speaking of salvation at the judgment seat of Christ, then things that accompany salvation makes perfect sense.

7. But and if that SERVANT say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the men-servants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the UNBELIEVERS. And that servant, which KNEW his lord's will, and PREPARED NOT himself, NEITHER DID according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that KNEW NOT, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: -- Luke 12:41-48

Now, and in this prophetic view of the future tribulation, as we have already stated, all men are servants of the King (although not necessarily "TO" the King), whether they choose to be or not, for He is Lord of all. The unbelieving and unprepared, who do not the Lord's will (John 6:40), are the ones who say, "My Lord delayeth his coming." These unbelieving and unprepared and those, who do not know the will of the Lord, will have their portion with the unbelievers, for they are unbelievers who never were saved in the first place, even though religious, saying “Lord, Lord,” and so forth. Some will refuse the gospel and the Lord's will, and others may not know it (but still refuse to follow the light that they have), resulting in a different amount of stripes. Still, these servants are "unprepared" for His coming. All believers are prepared; all do not watch.

Yes, but stating something doesn't make it so. You need to explain who the enemies are in Luke 19. If all men are servants, who are the enemies? The truth is that there are stripes for believers who do not do their Lord's will.

8. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YE CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my DISCIPLES indeed . . . -- John 8:31

Discipleship is discussed here, not hell nor loss of salvation. Believers should be discipled and be disciples INDEED, after being saved. Saved believers, who do not continue are not disciples INDEED, but they are still saved.

Now you are talking out of the other side of your mouth. You just spent a couple hundred words trying to prove that saved people keep the Lord's commandments, do the will of the Father, and that all men are servants, but unprofitable servants aren't saved. Now you are saying that a man can be saved and yet not continue in Jesus' word as a disciple? Make up your mind.

 

[James_Newman]

I don't understand you, Herb. On the one hand, you seem to be advocating some type of Lordship salvation, while on the other you are trying to preserve the free grace salvation to any who would believe. You can't have it both ways. Either believers are saved by believing or they are saved by doing. If they are saved by doing, how much doing do they have to do? How much good works do I have to have to know that I am not merely a false professor? And if they are saved by believing, how can a believer not continue in discipleship, not do their Lord's will, and NOT GET STRIPES?

 

[AVBunyan]

Mind if I join in - this subject of eternal security is a "dear to my heart". I'd like to make a few general statements and then run back into my cage.

1. This issue of eternal security is really an issue of justification. When I "chat" with one who believes he can "loose it" I'm really not debating over eternal security but trying to get the opposing side to see justfication. If one understands scriptual justification then eternal security will not be an issue.

2. And understanding of justification along with rightly dividing the truth clears up this "loose it" doctrine.

3. A person that really believes he can "fall away" or "loose it" has an incomplete understanding or even a complete misunderstanding of justification.

4. Finally - I'm beginng to believe that one who vehemently defends and clings to the "loose it" theoglogy could most likely still be unregenerate. Why? because a person who truely belives he can loose it or fall away is not trusting Christ alone but his doing something to keep itor not doing something to loose it.

God bless

 

[James_Newman]

ETERNAL, DELAYED, or TEMPORARY SALVATION and KINGDOM EXCLUSION?

(MISUNDERSTOOD PROOF-TEXTS)​

continued

9. I am the TRUE vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch IN ME that beareth NOT fruit he TAKETH WAY: and every branch that beareth FRUIT, he PURGETH it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are CLEAN through the WORD which I have spoken unto you. Abide IN ME, and I IN YOU. As the branch CANNOT bear OF ITSELF, EXCEPT IT ABIDE in the vine; no more can ye, except ye ABIDE IN ME I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth IN ME, and I IN HIM, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING. IF a man ABIDE NOT IN ME, he is CAST FORTH AS A BRANCH, and is WITHERED; and MEN gather them, and CAST them into the FIRE, and they are BURNED. If ye ABIDE IN ME, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my DISCIPLES. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue in my love. If ye KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, ye shall ABIDE in my LOVE; EVEN as I have kept my Father’s COMMANDMENTS, and ABIDE in his LOVE. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your JOY might be FULL. -- John 15:1- 11

The fact is that both the saved and unsaved were most likely to be present in this audience in that Judas had not yet been exposed as a false professing branch, who never had abided in Christ. Such an audience demands that the COMMAND to ABIDE IN HIM is general applying to both the saved and the unsaved here. Obviously, the false professor Judas could also be commanded to ABIDE in him, having not yet done so. Dtill, he NEVER could be told to “continue” to abide in Him. The saved, who already were IN HIM (Christ) in some way, are commanded to abide IN HIM in both the Gospels and the epistles. New Testament Christians are told to ABIDE IN HIM or else suffer shame and lack of confidence (1 John 2:28). Then there is the passage (1 John 3:6), which tells us that anyone, who ABIDETH in Him, SINNETH NOT.

Jesus is symbolically represented in this parable as the TRUE VINE TREE as
opposed to the FALSE, CORRUPT TREES [Matt. 7:16-20] with their false and corrupt branches that Jesus and John the Baptist preached against; this vine tree is the TRUE one. It follows that the True Vine’s branches are TRUE BRANCHES as well. Here, branches are put into three categories: (1.) the fruit-bearing believer branches that abide in Christ, (2.) The non fruit-bearing believer branches that abide in Christ (IN ME), and (3.) Those unbeliever branches, who are not true branches, who have never abided in Christ. The true believers are IN CHRIST (IN ME) and are CLEAN THROUGH HIS WORD. They are symbolically represented as the true branches of that TRUE VINE tree.

So, we have here, (1.) The true believers, fruit bearing branches that bear fruit and are purged to bring forth more fruit. (2.) The true believers, non fruit-bearing true branches, who may once have brought forth fruit but no longer do so, are TAKEN AWAY. If they already were NOT abiding in the vine, how could they be TAKEN AWAY from the vine (something that cannot be said of unbeliever Judas, who never was in the True Vine? (3.)The non-abiding branches, which do not belong to the true vine, are worthless, dead, imposter branches.

I agree, they cannot be TAKEN AWAY unless they are IN THE VINE. Now tell me what it means to be TAKEN AWAY, and can I be TAKEN AWAY and still be ABIDING IN THE VINE?

Jesus tells this audience that the true branches, who abide in Him (IN ME), are CLEAN. Overly dispensational and invisible churcher brethren cannot be very happy with such a situation. For how did these O.T. saints (still at that time) get CLEAN, since Christ had not yet died nor arose? They became CLEAN THROUGH CHRIST’S WORD. So, not only do we have saints IN HIM but we have CLEAN saints IN HIM in the four Gospels. Also, overly dispensational brethren must need be disappointed at all these branches being IN CHRIST, for that is not supposed to happen until after the cross—NOT BEFORE IT. Of course, Baptist Purgatory heretics and lose your salvationists delight in trying to FORCE hell and the lake of fire into John 15.

If one is positionally “abiding” IN CHRIST by the new birth, he is practically admonished and instructed to abide in HIM for discipleship, fruit bearing, to enable their prayers to be answered, and for their joy to be full. It also enables them to bear MUCH fruit—not to obtain nor even to keep their salvation or eternal life status nor their escape from hell status. The purpose of this parable is fruit bearing NOT salvation nor any escape from the Lake of Fire.

Christians are incapable of doing anything in or by themselves apart from Christ, except that they abide in Him (per both the Gospels and the Epistles). This word “ABIDE” in this parable is a curious word with a wide latitude of usage in that it may mean, depending on the context, remain, tarry, continue, dwell (where we get the word “ABODE”), and so forth. Its interpretation is KEY to this whole passage. Depending on how one manipulates this word, one may read various meanings INTO this passage. The word ABIDE and ABODE (in the sense of dwell) can even be used in the future sense in that some were told to abide, not yet having reached that destination (Luke 19:5; 24:29; Acts 16:15). Jesus promises that He and the Father will make their future ABODE with them under certain conditions (John 14:23). The word “DWELL” is often synonymously substituted for the word “ABIDE” by the KJB translators (John 6:5, 6; 1 John 3:17, 24; 4:12, 13, 15, 16; 2 John 2; Acts 28:16). Of course, “lose your salvationist” crowd would like it to mean “stay, continue, or remain in Christ, so that it appears that they can lose their salvation. Now, notice that nothing was said in John 15 about the lake of fire and nothing was said about hell and nothing was said about the Judgment seat of Christ, which Jesus’ audience did not even know existed.

Granted, the word “fire” is used, but if the fire in this parable is hell, it is the only place where “MEN” throw the unsaved (or the saved that used to be saved or who lost their no hell status) into hell, depending on the false teachers’ view. The false branches are not in the vine and are said not to abide in Christ and said to be taken by MEN to be burned. Note that they are cast forth “AS” a branch. This is a direct application to Judas, who never was clean nor ever was in Christ.

Note that the man that abides not in Christ is NOT a true branch that is cast forth; he is a man that is CAST forth “AS” a branch. He only seems like a true branch. Big difference! He is from a corrupt tree. It is a very weak position that hides behind the veil of a parable in order to promote one’s doctrine. If you can lose your position IN CHRIST and lose your ETERNAL LIFE status and lose your no-hell status, then a man can be IN CHRIST and then get OUT of Christ and be lost. We reject such an INFERENCE, which is based merely on innuendo, using a nuance of language. Nevertheless, if the non-abiding is allowed to apply to Judas, who DID NOT ABIDE IN CHRIST nor ever has abided in Him, then the problem is solved. Baptist Purgatory heretics insist that this means that carnal, saved, believers are cast into hell and the lake of fire. Yet, are they willing to also insist that those carnal believers are no longer IN CHRIST during that time (1000 years)?

New Testament saints are responsible to abide in His love and KEEP themselves in the love of God (Jude 21), but they are not responsible to keep their salvation. Only He that saves to the UTTERMOST can KEEP their salvation and their exemption from hell status. Obviously, once in Christ positionally, one cannot get out of Christ in the sense of the new creature being lost, but one can stop abiding in His love. It goes without saying that Jesus Christ kept His Father’s COMMANDMENTS and so ABIDED in His LOVE, without any need of salvation nor need to keep salvation. This is further commentary on ABIDING IN CHRIST, namely, ABIDING in His LOVE. We must keep CHRIST’s COMMANDMENTS to ABIDE in His LOVE (in contradistinction to the LAW’S COMMANDMENTS). This is all about discipleship, fruit bearing, and FULL JOY remaining in the believer—not about hell or salvation.

Luke 12:47
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

 

[James_Newman]

10. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost . . . Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. -- Acts 5:1-10

Here, all we have are two believers who lied to God and were killed because of it (1 Cor. 5:5; 11:30). Chastisement! Pure and simple! No mention of hell or losing salvation here.

If these disobedient believers are saved, then you have no reason to conclude that any 'unprofitable' or 'wicked' servant is unsaved. What criteria do you use to decide who is saved and who is not? Is it just whenever you start to feel the heat that you cut them off? Since the passage makes no mention of what happens next to Ananias and Sapphira, we are to assume they flew up to heaven and Jesus winked at them and said 'well done good and faithful servant'. But if there had been the slightest hint of fire in the text, Herb would promptly denounce Ananias and Sapphira as false professing wannabe's.

 

[robycop3]

Evidently, Ananias & Sapphira weren't really saved or they wouldn'ta have tried to deceive God.

Dr. Evans takes me to task elsewhere for insisting Hebrews 6:4-6 are verses with a literal meaning. We have a discussion elsewhere on this subject, so I won't harp on ot here. But let's think...If we have come in belief, repentance, & submission to Christ, do we now have license to just forget about Him afterwards?? Not hardly.

And who advocates having to WORK FOR ONE'S SALVATION after the Rapture? Dr. Peter Ruckman!

Works w/o faith are useless to the worker. Likewise, faith w/o works is dead. But that does NOT mean we hafta work for our salvation, as the Old Order Amish believe. It means the man or woman of God who is sincere in faith will wanna do good works. For some, it will mean extraordinary service to the poor, preaching moving sermons eight days a week, or just living a Christian life, setting an example for his/her neighbors.

Whether he/she does great works or small ones, all who know this person will know he/she is a CHRISTIAN. Works and faith go hand-in-hand. But like it or not, Hebrews 6:4-6 remains as a warning.

 

[AVBunyan]

Once more with feeling:

4. Finally - I'm beginng to believe that one who vehemently defends and clings to the "loose it" theoglogy could most likely still be unregenerate. Why? because a person who truely belives he can loose it or fall away is not trusting Christ alone but his doing something to keep itor not doing something to loose it.God bless

 

[av1611jim]

The crux oft the matter concerning ME is simply the right division of what salvation means in Scripture. Too many self professed Bible scholars in this Laodicean age think salvation ALWAYS means the same thing. However; if one were to contextually consider the passages where the word is used by Paul, Jesus, Peter, John etc...they would have NO CHOICE but to concede that ME is right and has NOTHING to do with Arminianism.

 

[AVBunyan]

However; if one were to contextually consider the passages where the word is used by Paul, Jesus, Peter, John etc...they would have NO CHOICE but to concede that ME is right and has NOTHING to do with Arminianism.

I'm confused here Jim - what do you believe here?

Thanks

GOd bless

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Good Job and a sense of humor to boot.:godisgood:

 

[J. Jump]

I'm confused here Jim - what do you believe here?

Thanks

AV I'm not Jim, but let me take a crack at expounding on what he was saying. In today's Christendom when someone mentions the words gospel or salvation people automatically assume they are talking about what it takes for someone to go to heaven for all of eternity. And they think that is the only meaning of those two words.

However, Scripture is not limited to those meanings for those two words. What one has to do is read those words in their contexts to find the meanings instead of supplying the meanings and then going to Scripture.

Gospel simply means good news as I am sure you are well aware. And there is good news to the spiritually dead (unsaved) and then there is good news to the spiritual alive (saved).

There is a salvation to the spiritually dead (eternal salvation) and then there is a salvation to the spiritually alive (kingdom salvation). Then there is also a salvation for those that get back into the boat and a couple of other uses for salvation in Scripture.

Hope that helps.

 

[James_Newman]

4. Finally - I'm beginng to believe that one who vehemently defends and clings to the "loose it" theoglogy could most likely still be unregenerate. Why? because a person who truely belives he can loose it or fall away is not trusting Christ alone but his doing something to keep itor not doing something to loose it.

I know exactly what you are saying here, brother. I have to believe that the majority of these guys probably are saved, but have had their assurance stripped away by well-meaning false teachers who are trying to protect the blood of Jesus from having to touch filthy sinners.

 

[James_Newman]

11. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done . . . And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said . . . Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Then answered Simon . . . Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. -- Acts 8:12-24

Paul was able to tell that Simon's heart was not right (21) by Simon's words (18, 19). He rebuked Simon by instructing him to repent and ask forgiveness for the wicked thoughts behind his wicked words (22). He told Simon, "Thy money perish with thee (20)." Money does not go to hell but can be physically destroyed.

Simon was certainly "in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity (23)," and in danger of physical destruction, but nothing is said, here, about him losing salvation, becoming lost again, or going to hell. In fact, it seems that Simon did repent, like a true believer (something which no one ever seems to notice). Another plausible explanation is that Simon believed only intellectually, even as the devils believe and tremble.

I would say that Simon was a believer because the bible tells me that he believed, whether he repented or not.

12. Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: -- Rom. 2:6,7

The "lose your salvationist" believes that he does not yet have eternal life, here, for why would he still be seeking eternal life? If this passage teaches one gets eternal life by well doing, rather than by grace, then it cannot teach that one loses the same eternal life, which he does not yet have. This passage views eternal life in its completed state with its future rewards (according to one's deeds).

But once again, if you rightly divide eternal life, and understand that Paul is speaking of the reward of eternal life during the kingdom age, then I can have eternal life on the last day, and still seek eternal life during the kingdom.

Romans 2:6-11
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

14. For IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: [Christians all die physicall] but if ye through the Spirit do MORTIFY [kill or deaden] the deeds of the body, ye shall live. -- Rom. 8:13

Chastisement and excommunication, which bring about sickness and physical death, to saved believers, are definite possibilities, as outlined by 1 Cor. 5:5 and 1 Cor. 11:30. In any case the spirit is still saved (1 Cor. 5:5). No hell nor salvation loss is mentioned here.

Did you skip 13 on purpose? Anyway, if dying in verse 14 is refering merely to physical death in this life, then what is it contrasted with in the word 'live'. If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (is this physical death), but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live(so, does this mean you will NOT experience physical death?) Maybe you have struck upon another conditional rapture verse, brother! Or it is referring to something other than physical death, which you rightly point out is appointed to all men, then the judgment.

15. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. -- Rom. 12:21

Overcoming evil with good does not gain or guarantee salvation; it does obtain a good testimony; it is a result of salvation and not a cause of salvation. No hell or salvation loss is mentioned here.

16. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. -- 1 Cor. 10:1-12

The passage compares the children of Israel sin as an "example" to New Testament believers. The fact is they were destroyed by their sin! How? Physical death! Nothing is said about hell! If they went to hell, it was for not believing!

Why do you not interpret these warnings in light of other warnings, such as Hebrews 10:29, where we are told that those who count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing are worthy of a much sorer punishment than physical death? Or Matthew 10:28, where we are told not to fear physical death at the hands of men, but rather to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell?

 

[Herb Evans]

Mind if I join in - this subject of eternal security is a "dear to my heart". I'd like to make a few general statements and then run back into my cage.

1. This issue of eternal security is really an issue of justification. When I "chat" with one who believes he can "loose it" I'm really not debating over eternal security but trying to get the opposing side to see justfication. If one understands scriptual justification then eternal security will not be an issue.

2. And understanding of justification along with rightly dividing the truth clears up this "loose it" doctrine.

3. A person that really believes he can "fall away" or "loose it" has an incomplete understanding or even a complete misunderstanding of justification.

4. Finally - I'm beginng to believe that one who vehemently defends and clings to the "loose it" theoglogy could most likely still be unregenerate. Why? because a person who truely belives he can loose it or fall away is not trusting Christ alone but his doing something to keep itor not doing something to loose it.

God bless

Very good post. The issue of etrnal salvation here is much broader in that what you are seeing is folks trying to incorporate the Faust heresy into the mix. They start out slowly and then slip in the part about some born again Christians being excluded from the kingdom and spending a thousand years in hell fire until they get out. Faustites will eventually tell you that they believe in eternal salvation but just get set it aside until after the 1000 years of hell fire, if they have to go there. The carnal Christians get killed at the judgment seat and are thrown into hell fire. Still, much like Catholics, you never know what gets you in or what keeps you out. I, too, doubt whether the Faustites ever were saved. -- Herb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

Very good post. The issue of etrnal salvation here is much broader in that what you are seeing is folks trying to incorporate the Faust heresy into the mix. They start out slowly and then slip in the part about some born again Christians being excluded from the kingdom and spending a thousand years in hell fire until they get out. Faustites will eventually tell you that they believe in eternal salvation but just get set it aside until after the 1000 years of hell fire, if they have to go there. The carnal Christians get killed at the judgment seat and are thrown into hell fire. Still, much like Catholics, you never know what gets you in or what keeps you out. I, too, doubt whether the Faustites ever were saved. -- Herb Evans

All you have to do is ask Herb how good you have to be to prove you are saved and then you will know how good you have to be to enter the kingdom. Herb doubts everyone is saved but himself. Although to his credit, he does think Ananias is probably a believer.

 

[Herb Evans]

Brother Herb, I promised I would come back to discuss these scriptures with you. I will just break them up into smaller groups to make it more manageable.



This is the 'they aren't really saved' defense. I'm sure that this will be your argument anywhere the bible appears to address believers with strong warnings. And this is really the crux of the matter. Can a person be saved and not be obedient? I think you would at least pretend to believe in salvation by grace through faith. But you teach a works based salvation when you deny that these passages are talking about saved people. What must I do to be saved?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to you, Herb, I don't get saved by believing on what Jesus has done, I get saved by doing the will of the Father. Bill Jackson has an excelent web site that you should look at. It is www.dodone.org and he explains the difference between do and done. If you could see the difference between the kingdom and eternal salvation, you wouldn't have to deny the grace of God.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Unless your not doing the will of the father, right Herb? You somehow tie 'knowing' (as in 'depart from me, I never knew you' or 'verily I say unto you, I know you not') with eternal salvation. Where does the bible say that a person has to 'know' Jesus to be saved?

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The truth, Herb, is that the difference between you and a 'lose-your-salvationist' Armenian is academic. You both believe that if a person is not keeping God's commandments, that person is not going to be saved in eternity. You only differ on whether they ever were saved to begin with.


All men are servants? That is your answer to the unprofitable servant? OK, then what about Luke 19? Who were the enemies in verse 27, the citizens from verse 14?

Luke 19
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

What is the difference between these people, and the wicked one-pound servant? The servant was saved.

Why do you hate free grace so much, brother? Are you afraid that some filthy sinner might end up sitting next to you for all eternity? For some reason, I can't help but think of Luke 18:11.

I don't know how we could ever discuss this, when you don't have the slightest idea as to what I believe. I believe in the finished work of Christ for my salvation and that it is grace, all grace and not works. Moreover, I do not believe anyone that gets saved can ever lose it. I dont know how you could ever mangle my comments any worse than you have. Your problem is that you have two plans of salvation, whereas I have one.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

-- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

All you have to do is ask Herb how good you have to be to prove you are saved and then you will know how good you have to be to enter the kingdom. Herb doubts everyone is saved but himself. Although to his credit, he does think Ananias is probably a believer.

You do not have to prove whether you are saved or not or to doubt them. Goodness is not the criteria for salvation or the kingdom. It is not of works for either. God takes care of that. But you do have to prove folks are saved, when you claim that they either lost their salvation or had it set aside for the kingdom. Still, that is not the issue. The issue is your using "lose your salvationist" proof texts to bar folks from the kingdom and consigning Christians to hell fire for those thousand years. That is where your problem is. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Jim Newman, Let's cut to the chase.

1. Do you believe that some born again Christians will spend 1000 years in hell fire?

2. If so, will they know they are going to hell fire in this life before it happens?

3. What does a Christian have to do to go to hell fire?

4. Do you know whether or not you are going to escape hell fire and go into the kingdom?

-- Herb Evans