Ten Commandments Keep them or break them?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

I appreciate your more recent response, but looking again at your earlier response:

TevorL - certainly it is true that the lost cannot keep the Law of God - as one of my prior posts shows from Romans 8.

As for the saved saints in Romans 6 and 8 they are not enslaved to law breaking. But in Romans 7 Paul points to the problem of the saved saint who has the new nature but realizes that the sinful nature is at war "with the law of my mind". And Paul appeals to the solution in Romans 8 of "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

Looking at Romans 7 we have one of the 10 Commandments:
Romans 7:7-10 (KJV): 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Paul’s experience of this Commandment “Thou shalt not covet” left him in a difficult position. Rather than keeping this Commandment, he found that when the Commandment came it actually awakened sin or lust witthin him, and as a result instead of the Commandment bringing life it slew him and he died.

Jesus introduces some new teaching when considering the Commandment “Thou shalt not kill”:
Matthew 5:21-22 (KJV): 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Rather than simply endorsing this Commandment, Jesus analyses the motives of man, showing that the attitude of the heart must be transformed so that it does not harbour wrong attitudes and motives and it yields with proper responsiveness to outside influences. His teaching on this Commandment also continues in vv23-26. Similarly vv27-32 give counsel concerning the motives of the heart of man concerning another one of the Commandments. In effect Jesus is not teaching simply “keep the 10 Commandments”, but he is highlighting the need of a thorough reformation and transformation of heart and mind so that we can become true disciples of Jesus.

Jesus concludes his Discourse on the Mount to his disciples with the following analogy:
Matthew 7:24-27 (KJV): 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

There is a world of difference between “Keeping the 10 Commandments” which were given with the Old Covenant through Moses and the way of life revealed in Christ in the New Covenant as taught to Jesus’ disciples. It is this New Covenant that must become their way of life by the faith of Jesus Christ and faith and trust in Him..

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Hi TrevorL -


You said -

In effect Jesus is not teaching simply “keep the 10 Commandments”, but he is highlighting the need of a thorough reformation and transformation of heart and mind so that we can become true disciples of Jesus.

Jesus concludes his Discourse on the Mount to his disciples with the following analogy:
Matthew 7:24-27 (KJV): 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

There is a world of difference between “Keeping the 10 Commandments” which were given with the Old Covenant through Moses and the way of life revealed in Christ in the New Covenant as taught to Jesus’ disciples. It is this New Covenant that must become their way of life by the faith of Jesus Christ and faith and trust in Him..

Kind regards
Trevor

2Cor 5 "if anyone is in Christ Jesus - He is a new creation, old things passed away -- all things have become new".

In John 3 - before the cross - Jesus informs Nicodemus that the ONE Gospel requires that all the saints be born again - because only the born-again person has the New Covenant where the Jer 31:31-33 Law of God is written inwardly - on the heart and mind.

In Gal 1:6-11 only one Gospel.

In Gal 3:7-8 That same Gospel preached to Abraham.

in Heb 4:1-2 The Gospel preached to them just as it was to us also.

This pre-cross teaching of Christ in the sermon on the mount - fits perfectly with Ex 20:6 "Love Me and Keep My Commandments".

As Christ said also pre-cross in John 14:15.

The difference is not that the Law of God was not as "infinite" and perfect in the OT. For God is the same yesterday today and forever. God says "I do not change" Malachi 3.

So I agree with your point that Christ came to magnify the law and that only the new creation could be in harmony with it.

I think this is what we see in the case of Elijah and Enoch - both taken to heaven - precross. They had to be born-again saints with a new nature not just the old sinful nature. Because the old sinful nature alone would never be acceptable to God. In Heb 11 the OT saints are said to have found perfect acceptance with God - by faith, and that only happens in the context of the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

You seem to be casting about you for some new story line.. some new false accusation.

How sad.

It is sad Bob, very sad that you cannot comprehend our position as Baptists or deliberately misrepresent us. The one thing that we, as Baptists, do have in common is this:
sola sciptura, or: The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine.

It is not "EGW authority." It is Biblical authority. There is a vast difference.
You don't believe in sola scriptura; you believe in EGW authority. That is your primary source. You may use the Bible, but your beliefs are defined by EGW. She is a false prophetess and would have been stoned by the standards of the OT.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Baptists are not homogenous as the SDA's are. You have no right to compare me to any other Baptist as you continue to do, and then to blatantly and sinfully justify the practice. You don't know all of my beliefs just as you don't know all the beliefs of any other Baptist.

The actual history is that I keep insisting that these Baptist sources oppose your own view that the TEN Commandments should be downsized or else eliminated. (And I have done that so often it is hard to understand why you have chosen your latest rabbit trail -- who is that supposed to fool -- me??)

Not one of them keep the Sabbath. Not one. You are simply being deceitful. In "their version" of the Ten Commandments, the Sabbath becomes "Sunday", which is not Biblically accurate. At least I am honest enough to admit that, and therefore conclude that "no we do not keep all Ten; we do not keep the Sabbath.
So stop playing the word games. Stop playing one off the other. Your game of semantics is sickening.

You keep arguing that I am the one who is alone in taking that view - the view that you are wrong to try to downsize or eliminate the TEN commandments after the cross. (Another incredibly obvious detail in our debate on this subject)

Only the Seventh Day Baptists actually keep the Sabbath, and then they only keep a revised manner of it, not the Biblical Sabbath.
All others, whom you continue to post about keeping the Sabbath--they don't keep the Sabbath, and you know that very well. So stop the nonsense. They have redefined the Sabbath. They don't keep it.

So I show that these other sources (that also include Baptists) agree with my point that the TEN Commandments ARE still binding on the saints and differ with yours.

You have shown yourself to be a hypocrite and dishonest.
None of your sources actually keep the Sabbath. Sunday, which they do keep, is not the Sabbath. All your points are therefore moot.

So here it is - in context.

The first point against Moody is a paraphrase of your own post against Moody -- hence I point out that you are in a spot where you cannot deny point 1 below.

I also point out that the verbatim quote that follows - is unquestionably a verbatim quote. Something else you cannot deny.

Moody does not keep the Sabbath and never did.
He preached that believers should gather for church on Sunday.
That is not keeping the Sabbath; don't be so foolish.

 

[BobRyan]

Sunday, which they do keep, is not the Sabbath. All your points are therefore moot.
Moody does not keep the Sabbath and never did.
He preached that believers should gather for church on Sunday.
That is not keeping the Sabbath; don't be so foolish.

As we all know by now - my point was that we cannot lie about what Moody said - we must let him speak for himself...

And I said it like this --


=========================



from: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...6&postcount=46

Sunday is not the Sabbath--nor was it ever, not in all of history was it the Sabbath. Moody's proclamation could not change the Sabbath into Sunday. The Sabbath has always been and always will be Saturday. Just because Moody proclaimed it to be Sunday doesn't make it so.

Yet given that fact - we cannot join DHK in lying about what Moody said about his own beliefs - we must let Moody speak for himself even though we may not agree with his views 100%.

===================== D.L. Moody
Quote:

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
HOW TBSERVE THE SABBATH[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.[/FONT]

================== end quote

Verbatim. No comments added. Yet DHK fears these words - as they read - with nothing added.

--------------------------------------

1. How sad for DHK that he cannot deny my quote above stating "Sunday is not the Sabbath--nor was it ever, not in all of history was it the Sabbath. Moody's proclamation could not change the Sabbath into Sunday. The Sabbath has always been and always will be Saturday. Just because Moody proclaimed it to be Sunday doesn't make it so. "

2. How sad for DHK that he cannot deny my verbatim quote of D.L. Moody that follows my opening statement above.

 

[BobRyan]

Only the Seventh Day Baptists actually keep the Sabbath, and then they only keep a revised manner of it, not the Biblical Sabbath.
All others, whom you continue to post about keeping the Sabbath--they don't keep the Sabbath, and you know that very well. So stop the nonsense. They have redefined the Sabbath. They don't keep it.
.

None of the sources that I quote say "we don't keep the Sabbath - " and we both know it. You insist that we should all lie when quoting those sources -- I refuse to do it even though I do not agree with their idea that Sunday is the new form of the 4th commandment Sabbath.

Pure and simple. I let them speak for themselves when THEY say they admit that the TEN Commandments are still binding on the saints today.

Just like I do not change your quote on the 2 resurrections in Rev 20 -- even though I know you are dead wrong about the pre-trib rapture.

It is called - honesty.

It is called admitting that just because someone gets one detail wrong does not mean every statement they make is wrong.

A concept you struggle with at times - but apparently you had no problem with it in the pre-trib vs post-trib thread.

How "instructive" that your methods are so transparent to the reader.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Same preface for Spurgeon and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- though we may not agree with every detail of what he says - we cannot lie when we state his views - so we let him speak for himself.

================================

[FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

Section 19
. The Law of God [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of universal obedience which was written in his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The moral law ever binds [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done. [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

So here is the question ...

Shall I take this two statement preface and place it ahead of all the sources I reference? The "Westminster Confession of Faith"? (as I did with D.L. Moody) - the Baptist Confession of Faith, Andy Stanley? R.C. Sproul? others?

=============== The two statement preface


Sunday is not the Sabbath--nor was it ever, not in all of history was it the Sabbath. (source document) proclamation could not change the Sabbath into Sunday. The Sabbath has always been and always will be Saturday. Just because (source document) proclaimed it to be Sunday doesn't make it so.

Yet given that fact - we cannot join DHK in lying about what (source document) said about his own beliefs - we must let (source document) speak for himself even though we may not agree with his views 100%.

Just as I agree with DHK on one part of his statement about the TWO resurrections in Rev 20 - yet I strongly differ on his pre-trib view, so I agree with the TEN Commandment view that they are still binding while I object to claiming that Sunday is the Sabbath after the cross.

(Obviously).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

As we all know by now - my point was that we cannot lie about what Moody said - we must let him speak for himself...

And I said it like this --

It doesn't matter what Moody said. Moody was wrong. Accept it.

 

[DHK]

Same preface for Spurgeon and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- though we may not agree with every detail of what he says - we cannot lie when we state his views - so we let him speak for himself.

Let them speak for themselves. So what? They were wrong. It makes no difference. The Sabbath is Saturday; they say otherwise. They were wrong. Why do you quote other sources when I am sola scriptura? Do you have a vendetta against the Bible?

 

[BobRyan]

Let them speak for themselves. So what? They were wrong. It makes no difference. The Sabbath is Saturday; they say otherwise.

Obviously they were wrong to claim that the 4th commandment applies to week-day-1 instead of Saturday the seventh day of the week.

Obviously they were wrong to claim that the Law of God could be "edited" at the cross so that week day 1 is turned into the 7th day Sabbath of the 4th commandment.

But they were right to admit that the Sabbath remains in force just as it was in Eden.

They were right to say that the TEN Commandments still apply to the saints.

They were right to say that those who try to get rid of the Ten Commandments or to downsize them to nine have no Biblical basis for doing so.

So even though they get some things wrong -- the do not get everything wrong.

Why do you quote other sources when I am sola scriptura? Do you have a vendetta against the Bible?

I quote other sources because you are so quick to abandon sola scriptura and resort to name-calling as if I am the only one who notices the flaws in your argument that says that the Ten Commandments were ended or at least downsized to nine.

I point to the fact that many Baptist sources do not agree with that and your endless name-calling of the form it-is-just-you-that-notices-my-problem is complete bunk in that regard.

We both knew this - so not sure why you are wanting me to keep reminding you of it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It doesn't matter what Moody said. Moody was wrong. Accept it.

Moody was not wrong about the Ten Commandments still applying to Christians and about the Sabbath still being applicable to the saints as it was to Adam and Eve in Eden.

Moody was right on those points - and you are wrong.

However Moody was wrong to try and edit the Sabbath commandment to point it to some other day than "The Seventh day" and you are right to point that out - as I always do as well.

So just stating the obvious so far.

So obvious that both you and I knew this was going to be the answer.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Obviously they were wrong to claim that the 4th commandment applies to week-day-1 instead of Saturday the seventh day of the week.

Obviously they were wrong to claim that the Law of God could be "edited" at the cross so that week day 1 is turned into the 7th day Sabbath of the 4th commandment.

But they were right to admit that the Sabbath remains in force just as it was in Eden.

They were right to say that the TEN Commandments still apply to the saints.

They were right to say that those who try to get rid of the Ten Commandments or to downsize them to nine have no Biblical basis for doing so.

So even though they get some things wrong -- the do not get everything wrong.

I have no interest in what they believe. Why do you keep bringing them up?
They could have had a diet of green eggs and ham. It still wouldn't affect what I believe. Your re-posting of their beliefs is completely non-sequitor, needless use of space.

I quote other sources because you are so quick to abandon sola scriptura and resort to name-calling as if I am the only one who notices the flaws in your argument that says that the Ten Commandments were ended or at least downsized to nine.

Calling the kettle black here.
You are not sola scriptura; you are EGW follower.
I am sola scriptura, thus do not care about the beliefs of these others.
I compare your beliefs to the Bible and to the ones that you follow.
I tell you what I believe from the Bible.
You try to derail the thread by bringing in these other people and then defame them.

I point to the fact that many Baptist sources do not agree with that and your endless name-calling of the form it-is-just-you-that-notices-my-problem is complete bunk in that regard.

I don't agree with many or even most Baptists. That is my prerogative. We are not mindless robots that chuck our brains at the door when we go to hear our leaders (i.e. EGW). We believe in sola scriptura and the priesthood of the believer, and that every Baptist has the right to believe what he believes the Bible is teaching is true.
You do not believe that. You then deny sola scriptura. You don't have the same prerogative that I have--to disagree with my fellow brethren. Often we "agree to disagree" and remain best of friends. SDA cannot do that.

 

[DHK]

Obviously they were wrong to claim that the 4th commandment applies to week-day-1 instead of Saturday the seventh day of the week.

When they are wrong they are wrong. Therefore I disagree with them. Don't tell me that I should agree with them, and my beliefs are the same. They aren't. You have no right to bring these people into this conversation when their beliefs differ from both you and me. That is both hypocritical and dishonest of you.

Obviously they were wrong to claim that the Law of God could be "edited" at the cross so that week day 1 is turned into the 7th day Sabbath of the 4th commandment.

Again, your deceit, dishonesty and hypocrisy is showing when you bring these authors in as evidence to bolster your position, and to say that these people agree with me. They don't. You are just a hypocrite in doing so.

But they were right to admit that the Sabbath remains in force just as it was in Eden.

They were right to say that the TEN Commandments still apply to the saints.

They were right to say that those who try to get rid of the Ten Commandments or to downsize them to nine have no Biblical basis for doing so.

So even though they get some things wrong -- the do not get everything wrong.

It is called compromise. Either it is or it isn't. You just delineated a position that has truth mixed with error. God does not operate in that manner. Having said that you didn't represent their positions fairly either.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't agree with many or even most Baptists. That is my prerogative. .

I too have some areas where I differ with some Baptists.

But I agree with your view that the Sabbath commandment cannot be edit or changed by man.

And I agree with D.L. Moody that the Sabbath commandment - and all the Ten Commandments - are still binding on all the saints - such that the Sabbath commandment given to Adam in Eden is still applicable to the saints today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It is no wonder that D.L. Moody and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" find the Ten Commandments still valid according to the Bible - just look!

=====================

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments in assigned that title "in scripture"

[FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3


And of Course Eph 6:1-2 where Paul quotes verbatim from the OT - a unique full quote of the 5th commandment not found anywhere else in the NT.

===========================
What IS sin according to the NT Word of God?

1John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

How does the saint view that Law according to Paul?

"what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19
"do we then make void the Law of God? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

"
8 For finding fault with them, He says,“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
...
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

How does this Law of God relate to Love for God and Love for one another?

1 John 5:1-4

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Does not Grace - free us from the issue of sin and rebellion against God's law so that we need not worry about it ? Can we marry rebellion and Grace together?

Romans 6
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:7 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Rev 14:12 the 'Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Rom 2:13-16 "It is NOT the hearers of the law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justiFIED ... on the day when according to my Gospel God will Judge"

Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father"

What about the one who "says" that the Commandments of God are impossible to keep -- who are they?

Romans 8
the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[DHK]

I too have some areas where I differ with some Baptists.

But I agree with your view that the Sabbath commandment cannot be edit or changed by man.

And I agree with D.L. Moody that the Sabbath commandment - and all the Ten Commandments - are still binding on all the saints - such that the Sabbath commandment given to Adam in Eden is still applicable to the saints today.

in Christ,

Bob

Do I care? This thread is not about a "Who's who in church history?"
I really don't care if the person is a Baptist, congregationalist, a novelist or a tinker, a watchmaker, a cobbler, an African, a European, etc.
I believe in sola scriptura.
But since you can't defeat my position with Scripture you keep bringing others into this thread which only defeats your own position. You obviously have nothing of substance from the Bible to bring to the table. That being the case you could graciously concede and bow out of the discussion.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do I care? This thread is not about a "Who's who in church history?"
I really don't care if the person is a Baptist, congregationalist, a novelist or a tinker, a watchmaker, a cobbler, an African, a European, etc.
I believe in sola scriptura.
But since you can't defeat my position with Scripture you keep bringing others into this thread which only defeats your own position. You obviously have nothing of substance from the Bible to bring to the table. That being the case you could graciously concede and bow out of the discussion.

the bible ALONE is our authoritative source, and there is NO WHERE in the NT where the Church was put back under isreal Sabbath to observe!

 

[BobRyan]

It is no wonder that D.L. Moody and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" find the Ten Commandments still valid according to the Bible - just look!

=====================

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments in assigned that title "in scripture"

[FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

[/FONT] 1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3


And of Course Eph 6:1-2 where Paul quotes verbatim from the OT - a unique full quote of the 5th commandment not found anywhere else in the NT.

===========================
What IS sin according to the NT Word of God?

1John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

How does the saint view that Law according to Paul?

"what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19
"do we then make void the Law of God? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

"
8 For finding fault with them, He says,“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
...
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

How does this Law of God relate to Love for God and Love for one another?

1 John 5:1-4

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Does not Grace - free us from the issue of sin and rebellion against God's law so that we need not worry about it ? Can we marry rebellion and Grace together?

Romans 6
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Ex 20:7 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Rev 14:12 the 'Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Rom 2:13-16 "It is NOT the hearers of the law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justiFIED ... on the day when according to my Gospel God will Judge"

Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father"

What about the one who "says" that the Commandments of God are impossible to keep -- who are they?

Romans 8
the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So what is the response to these bible texts?

the bible ALONE is our authoritative source,

Then you appear to be stuck - accepting the texts as they read.

I certainly do.

I also accept the EVERY example in the NT of "Scripture" that is quoted or "It is written" that is quoted - is from the OT.

Where we find "from one Sabbath to another shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66 -- for as Christ said in the NT "the Sabbath was MADE for mankind - and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 - speaking of the "making" of both in Genesis 1-2:3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

So what is the response to these bible texts?

A standard grade one copy and paste with references to Moody, et. al.
You have it stored on a Word document to copy and paste at the click of a mouse at any moment don't you? Not even edited.

Then you appear to be stuck - accepting the texts as they read.

No one here is stuck. We all believe the Scripture--just not your interpretation. Without any exceptional interpretation or any explanation at all, you simply have posted Scripture. You have proved nothing. Thanks for the Scripture.

I also accept the EVERY example in the NT of "Scripture" that is quoted or "It is written" that is quoted - is from the OT.

Also blatantly ignoring context. Does the Bible say, "there is not God"?
It does, doesn't it? But you don't care about context.

Where we find "from one Sabbath to another shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66 -- for as Christ said in the NT "the Sabbath was MADE for mankind - and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 - speaking of the "making" of both in Genesis 1-2:3.

My point exactly. You don't care about the context. Post anything you want to; just avoid the context. Like Madelyne O'Hare, you can make the Bible say anything you want it to. She did.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
So what is the response to these bible texts?

A standard grade one copy and paste

Ahh yes the response to the texts could always be "a focus on HOW the texts get posted rather than on WHAT the texts say".

There is always that.

I prefer a discussion on the actual texts posted - thanks anyway.

I also accept that EVERY example in the NT of "Scripture" that is quoted or "It is written" that is quoted - is from the OT.

The OT where we find "from one Sabbath to another shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66 is the predicted state for all saints for all of eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth -- for as Christ said in the NT "the Sabbath was MADE for mankind - and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 - speaking of the "making" of both in Genesis 1-2:3.

in Christ,

Bob