Ten Commandments, So What??

[DHK]

1. You can't have it both ways -- either you agree fully with Moody and I am misquoting him -- so then SHOW that I am doing that even ONCE!

You still don't get it Bob. It doesn't matter what I believe on this topic. Put that to rest.
It doesn't matter what the poll is saying. Put that to rest.
It doesn't matter whether or not I agree or disagree with Moody. Put that to rest.

What matters is the fact that you are deliberately misrepresenting someone else's belief system. You are deliberately misrepresenting what Moody beliefs. I don't care whether or not he lines up with your little survey or poll. That is not the issue. You are stating (and very unethically) that he believes something that he does not.

"Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath Day."
Yes, Moody believes that. But not in the same way you do.
Moody defines Sabbath as Sunday.
Thus what Moody is saying is this: "Thou shalt keep holy the Sunday day." But you have twisted everything that he has said to mean that he has set aside the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday) as a day of rest, holy, unto the Lord. That is a false allegation, and deceit on your part. Moody never taught that. Whenever he used Sabbath his intent and meaning was Sunday (whether he clarified it or not). That was the meaning of the word in that day among Christians. You cannot use Moody as an example of one who kept the Sabbath. He did not. The Sabbath, to him, was Sunday. So leave Moody out of your arguments.

If EGW knew that Moody worshiped on Sunday and not Saturday she would count Moody as one who had the mark of the beast.
If EGW knew that Moody called Sunday the Sabbath, and worshiped on Sunday, she would brand him twice with the mark of the beast and be rolling over in her grave with anguish.

Every argument that Moody ever gave in favor of the Sabbath was meant to be in favor of Sunday for he believed that the Sabbath was Sunday. Don't misrepresent him again.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan, 'Substance'? What are you talking of? Substance? Moody for the validity of the Seventh Day Sabbath?

You SDAs do the same with Luther when he referred to --- who's that bloke now --- saying if he kept on writing on the Sabbath the Churcg would have to accept Judaim in toto. Now if your method of interpreting a writer applied, you may say Luther taught Christianity is false, and Judaism is true.

YOU, lack, substance. But revealed to the bottom you expose only fear. For if you admitted you, are wrong re the use of Moody or Luther, you will have to admit your whole church is wrong, and so your 'inspired' prophetess. You fear; plainly. And fear drives out love. And service to God out of fear is rejected by Him. God rejects your Sabbath-keeping, SDAs!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan, you want 'substance for Sabbath-keeping? You take Moody for 'substance', yet reject the resurrection of Jesus Christa from the dead. You take for 'substance', Israel's redemption from Egypt; yet you reject Jesus' resurrection from the dead; you except the creation, but abhorr Jesus' resurrection should be the ONLY reason for Christian celebration / remembrance of the Day of Worship-Rest.
You reject what the Church at large accepts - 'SUBSTANCE' for keeping the Lord's Day HIS DAY by virtue of LORDSHIP BY TRIUMPH OF VICTORY.

This is something to ponder for more persons than you only.

 

[BobRyan]

You still don't get it Bob. It doesn't matter what I believe on this topic. Put that to rest.
It doesn't matter what the poll is saying. Put that to rest.
It doesn't matter whether or not I agree or disagree with Moody. Put that to rest.

What matters is the fact that you are deliberately misrepresenting someone else's belief system.

If you can actually show that your claim has "substance" do it.

You continually repeat your accusation - but then faithfully refuse to show any actual support of it - -as IF this is some kind of badge of honor - not providing proof or substance for false accusations.

Where is the value in that??

You are deliberately misrepresenting what Moody beliefs.

A+ accusation
F - proof/detail/substance/data/

I don't care whether or not he lines up with your little survey or poll. That is not the issue.

Clearly YOU would not have quoted Moody to support your view in the poll.

Clearly I WOULD quote Moody since HIS VIEW is exactly what is being promoted in the results of the Poll. That means in the case of this thread the MAJORITY" would be pleasantly accepting of Moody's views while you would be complaining about his statements at every turn.

Hmmm kinda like you are doing to the point of not wanting his statements posted at all if you can swing it.

You are stating (and very unethically) that he believes something that he does not.

A++ Accuasatoni

F-- Proof and detail.

"Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath Day."
Yes, Moody believes that. But not in the same way you do.

Lousy "proof" -- try "quoting ME" and showing ME claim something about or FOR Moody that is not true.

That plain and simply fact is that you are on record as arguing FOR "The DOWNSIZING of God's Ten Commandments to NINE" and Moody is on record as opposing that soluiton with all of his heart mind and soul.

I agree with him on that point and you seem to feel that you must complain each time I do.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

(From Post 140)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
I have shown two different quotes of his where he equates Sabbath with Sunday, thus negating his belief in the Sabbath. Why do you ignore them?

I never argue that he excluded Sunday from his "pro-4th-commandment" arguments. You have never given a single quote of me doing that either. You just keep complaining AS IF that has happened!

Here is what I said repeatedly (most recently post 119) - I show YOUR solution, I show MOODY's solution and then I show MY solution.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
You have three choices DHK.

1. Either go to the "downsized to nine" solution and claim you don't really pay attention to the 4th commandment since in your opinion it no longer matters - no longer exists. But in that case admit that the 4th commandment is "not editable" and in fact references the day given in Gen 2:3 and specified again in the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20. God's word "not editable". Use exegesis to show that the day was specifically Saturday.

2. OR go to the solution Moody has selected (along with what appears to be a majority on this thread) where HE claims that the 4th commandment IS binding and DOES matter but that your week-day-one selection is somehow satisfying that requirement. Use exegesis to show that the Ten Commandments are a unit and are binding.

3. Combine the exegesis of BOTH methods with the result that the commandments are NOT editable and the WHOLE ten are in fact still binding -- which would be my solution.

 

[BobRyan]

Every argument that Moody ever gave in favor of the Sabbath was meant to be in favor of Sunday for he believed that the Sabbath was Sunday. Don't misrepresent him again.

Slamming doors and pounding pulpits is not "Another way to get proof" for a false accusation DHK. You have to actually "show" that your accusations have merit - have substance.

In the dark ages the "Substitute for substance" was threats and "more false accusations" -- Praise God the Christian church has left those days.

Step into the light.

IF you have an accusation that will hold water - please present the actual quotes -- the real proof. Simply complaining that Moody is being quoted in a way that does not favor your "downsized to nine" solution does not suffice as "proof" that I have miquoted or misrepresented Moody in the least.

BTW - Have you gone to another Moderator yet to see if you can delete quotes of D.L Moody?? I have to think that a Baptist Board is going to be generally in favor of Moody.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

If you can actually show that your claim has "substance" do it.

You continually repeat your accusation - but then faithfully refuse to show any actual support of it - -as IF this is some kind of badge of honor - not providing proof or substance for false accusations.

Where is the value in that??



A+ accusation
F - proof/detail/substance/data/
Bob

Quote #1

When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted

from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday,
…
Make the Sabbath a day of religious activity. First of all, of course, is attendance at public worship. "There is a discrepancy," says John McNeill, "between our creed about the Sabbath day and our actual conduct. In many families, at ten o'clock on the Sabbath, attendance at church is still an open question.

There is no open question on Monday morning- 'John, will you go to work today.'"

From Sundown on Saturday to Sundown on Sunday means Sunday Bob, not the Sabbath of Saturday. Are you able to understand that? This comes from the link that you provided.
Then notice the last statement that all will return to work on Monday--that is after the Sabbath (Sunday). There is your proof that Sabbath = Sunday.
That is quote #1.

Here is quote #2.

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.

"There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday (Sabbath). I generally preach on Sunday (Sabbath). Saturday is my day of rest." (Sabbath to him personally only because it was his day of rest as Monday is to me.)

Moody did not keep the Jewish Sabbath. It is deceitful to say that he did. He kept nine of the Ten Commandments. In saying that he kept holy the Sabbath Day, he kept holy the "Sunday Day" as is evidenced in the above quotes. Try being a bit honest in your quotes about Moody. If you continue in this vein, I will be forced to shut these threads down and delete them. I expect some honesty Bob, as also Gerhard has pointed out.

 

[DHK]

2. OR go to the solution Moody has selected (along with what appears to be a majority on this thread) where HE claims that the 4th commandment IS binding and DOES matter but that your week-day-one selection is somehow satisfying that requirement. Use exegesis to show that the Ten Commandments are a unit and are binding.

Whatever others may say or think this is not keeping the Sabbath. Sunday is not the Sabbath. Saturday is the Sabbath. Those who worship on the first day of the week are not keeping the Sabbath no matter what they say. It does not satisfy the demands of the law no matter what claims a person may make. Your poll is flawed from the beginning. The Sabbath is not binding on any one but the Jews. It is a sign of the covenant made between the Jews and their generations forever and ever as is aptly explained in Exodus 31. But you like to ignore that Scripture, and in fact don't even know what to do with it.

Moody did not keep the Sabbath, in spite of your poll. The options on your poll are flawed. Your entire poll is flawed. You have given false options or premises.

 

[BobRyan]

I never argue that he excluded Sunday from his "pro-4th-commandment" arguments. You have never given a single quote of me doing that either. You just keep complaining AS IF that has happened!

Here is what I said repeatedly (most recently post 119) - I show YOUR solution, I show MOODY's solution and then I show MY solution.

Bob already said -

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobRyan
You have three choices DHK.

1. Either go to the "downsized to nine" solution and claim you don't really pay attention to the 4th commandment since in your opinion it no longer matters - no longer exists. But in that case admit that the 4th commandment is "not editable" and in fact references the day given in Gen 2:3 and specified again in the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20. God's word "not editable". Use exegesis to show that the day was specifically Saturday.

2. OR go to the solution Moody has selected (along with what appears to be a majority on this thread) where HE claims that the 4th commandment IS binding and DOES matter but that your week-day-one selection is somehow satisfying that requirement. Use exegesis to show that the Ten Commandments are a unit and are binding.

3. Combine the exegesis of BOTH methods with the result that the commandments are NOT editable and the WHOLE ten are in fact still binding -- which would be my solution.

I think you want us to believe that the "answer" to this is --

Quote #1

[/b]From Sundown on Saturday to Sundown on Sunday means Sunday Bob, not the Sabbath of Saturday. Are you able to understand that? This comes from the link that you provided. [/size]
...

DLMOODY
"There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday (Sabbath). I generally preach on Sunday (Sabbath). Saturday is my day of rest." (Sabbath to him personally only because it was his day of rest as Monday is to me.)

[/quote]

DHK in your search for honesty -- have you been able to SHOW that my quotes above are in ANY WAY conflicted with what you actually SHOW Moody saying?

Anything at all??

How about just One tiny thing then?

 

[BobRyan]

First DL MOODY's claim

D L Moody

http://www.fbinstitute.com/
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The...ents_Text.html

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

Then DHK's claim

Quote #1
Moody did not keep the Jewish Sabbath. It is deceitful to say that he did. He kept nine of the Ten Commandments. In saying that he kept holy the Sabbath Day, he kept holy the "Sunday Day" as is evidenced in the above quotes. Try being a bit honest in your quotes about Moody. If you continue in this vein, I will be forced to shut these threads down and delete them. I expect some honesty Bob, as also Gerhard has pointed out.

[/color][/color]

You appear to be arguing with Moody HIMSELF!!

It is left to the objective unbiased reader to observe whether or not Moody (by contrast to DHK) appears to reject the "downsized nine" option "explicitly" in what HE argues. (i.e. note "details" in what HE said).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Whatever others may say or think this is not keeping the Sabbath. Sunday is not the Sabbath. Saturday is the Sabbath.

This was already addressed on page 11 - post 106 -- as I already pointed out

Post 106. Bob said -

Each time your argument loses substance you resort to "more pulpit pounding". This is becoming a regular tactic on your part DHK.

My point is that MOODY HIMSELF makes these claims about the continued authority of the 4th commandment (claims that you constantly contradict in your own arguments against Christ's memorial of His creative work in Gen 2:1-3).

...


This business of quoting Moody and seeing that the very "details" of his argument contradict your tradition of "10 commandments downsized to nine" -- just never gets old.

I affirm Moody on his "4th commandment still valid" argument above.

I affirm you on your "4th commandment could not have been edited" argument.

But your wild "deceitful this" and "deceitful that" pulpit pounding I find to be indicative of your resort to transparent ad hominem when reason and logic are lacking in your argument.

This is in fact the THIRD option I keep showing as MY position that combines the sliver of truth in your argument along with the foundational truths in Moody's argument.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

D L Moody

http://www.fbinstitute.com/
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The...ents_Text.html

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

DHK then objects to Moody's argument above -

DHK -
Those who worship on the first day of the week are not keeping the Sabbath no matter what they say. It does not satisfy the demands of the law no matter what claims a person may make. Your poll is flawed from the beginning. The Sabbath is not binding on any one but the Jews. It is a sign of the covenant made between the Jews and their generations forever and ever as is aptly explained in Exodus 31. But you like to ignore that Scripture, and in fact don't even know what to do with it.

Moody did not keep the Sabbath, in spite of your poll. The options on your poll are flawed. Your entire poll is flawed. You have given false options or premises.

And of course in your railing against DL Moody's point above - you want to keep making wild arguments of the form "pay no attention to the fact that my argument is contradictory to Moody's - pretend this is all Bob's fault".

That approach is not washing because to this point you were not able to point to ANYTHING I Said about Moody that contradicts anything HE SAYS about HIMSELF.

Not one single quote of ME claiming that Moody takes a DIFFERENT position OTHER than the one HE takes -- by contrast to "your solution".

As for the Poll - the predominant view in the Poll AND the fact that it is IN HARMONY with the Position that Moody takes -- it is left as an exercise for the reader to simply "observe the obvious" in that regard.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I think you want us to believe that the "answer" to this is --

DHK in your search for honesty -- have you been able to SHOW that my quotes above are in ANY WAY conflicted with what you actually SHOW Moody saying?

Anything at all??

How about just One tiny thing then?

It is strange to me how that when the Oneness Pentecostals were permitted to post here, they used Moody to justify their speaking in tongues for they claimed that Moody spoke in tongues--which of course is not true. Remember that the Oneness Pentecostals believe that baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues is necessary for salvation. But Moody is historical proof (for them) that it was practiced in other centuries.

Now Bob, an SDA points to Moody as well. Everyone wants a piece of Moody, it seems. He wasn't an SDA, and he wasn't a Oneness Pentecostal, so all of this seems very strange. Nevertheless Bob said:

D.L. Moody's work on the Sabbath commandment and the Ten Commandments is a good example of a position in doctrine and principle that I agree with - except that I would argue that you can not edit the commandments in any way as they were spoken directly by God.

i Christ,

Bob

As one can see Moody is a good example for the SDA's as one who keeps the Sabbath. But Moody never kept the Sabbath. Bob has been very deceiful about this point all along. Moody kept Sunday as a day of rest, holy unto the Lord.

Since this topic has been "off-topic" for at least the last five pages it will now be closed. Needless to say, any other threads or posts that will engage in unethical posting will also be deleted/closed.