Testing the "Seven Times Purified Theory"

You don't know history very well. Dave wrote his early Psalms while hiding from Saul & Co. He had prayed to God to protect him. God told him He would protect Dave & all those with him from Saul, which He did. He even put Saul into David's hand, & when David hollered down to Saul Saul admitted he'd sinned & knew Dave coulda killed him as he slept, & Dave didn't intend to harm him. (David knew to wait for GOD to carry out His plan against Saul). You need to study history CAREFULLY before you make assumptions about certain Scriptures.

Now, NONE of this has anything to do with "7 times purified". God's words were perfect when He spoke them & they were written down by His chosen penmen, They needed NO purification.

 

The KJV isn't perfect at all. It has many goofs & booboos, such as "Easter" in Acts 12:4, & the ADDED words "and shalt be" in Rev. 16:5, a phrase which is NOT found in that verse in ANY known ancient Greek ms. of Revelation.

 

Two issues. The Easter translation originated with Tyndale.

As to the reading in Revelation 16:5 an explanation does exist. Beza and Revelation 16:5 - KJV Today

 

A sound, convincing explanation does not exist. The explanation would conflict with the overwhelming manuscript evidence for this verse.

Jan Krans noted that “in most cases the information provided by Beza agrees exactly with Stephanus’ critical apparatus” (Beyond What Is Written, p. 211), and in his footnote [3] Krans asserted that Beza “even faithfully reproduces Stephanus’ errors.” Krans wrote: “Beza often refers to readings derived from Stephanus in ways that suggest that he actually consulted the manuscripts himself. However, this impression is deceptive, at least in case of Stephanus’ manuscripts” (p. 213). Krans observed: “It may be safely concluded that most of Beza’s text-critical information was second-hand, that is, derived from Henri Stephanus’ collations and Robert or Henri Stephanus’ editions” (pp. 242-243).

In notes under correspondence from Francis Huyshe in the March, 1834, issue of The British Magazine, this is stated concerning Revelation 16:5: “But having discovered in the book of collations, the reading, …, (which is ever used on similar occasions), as he [Beza] says, ‘ex vetusto bonae fidei MS. Cod.,’ he restores it” (Vol. V, p. 287). Did Beza merely assume that the new reading he introduced at Revelation 16:5 was found in an old manuscript because it was in an imperfect, recent book of collations where a young collator could have looked at the wrong place in a manuscript that did not have verse divisions? Do the known facts indicate that Henri Stephanus’ imperfect book of collations may have misled Beza in some cases?

Beza may have misled some to think that he found a reading in an old manuscript when he evidently found a mistake written in a book of collations by Stephanus' eighteen year old son since that reading introduced by Beza was not actually found in any known manuscript of Revelation that Henri Stephanus examined.

 

Based upon the common manuscript evidence. The point of that explanation is the origin of that AV variant. Justified or not. There is a reason for it. Otherwise it would not be there.

 

You are in left field on this and your comments makes it apparent that you have not read my comments on this thread.

 

The computer generated cross references for Ps 12:6. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Ps 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Ps 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Ps 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
2Sa 22:31 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.
Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Ps 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.

Israel, whom this psalm, and all psalms, are about, will be preserved forever. It is not from this generation to the last generation, because there is not a last generation for Israel, but from this generation forever. But, except for a small remnant of them at any given time in her history, she has been rebellious and an idolatrous people. The wrath of God, which we know as "the time of Jacob's trouble," the great tribulation," "the day of the LORD," is a set time and a reserved time that God has set aside to purge Israel of all those who will not repent, leaving them as a purified and holy people as well as wrestling the government of the earth away from the usurper, Satan, and his man of sin who rules the whole world at the time this psalm is fulfilled.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The unquenchable fire is the great tribulation.

The seventh mysteries of the kingdom of heaven parables describing the characteristics of this present age and the beginning and the ending of it. (The resurrection of Jesus Christ until the Day of the LORD)
Mt 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (aion = age)?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end (of the aion = age) is not yet.

Okay, when is it?

13 But he that shall endure unto the end (of the aion = age), the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (kosmos = planet earth) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (of the aion = age) come.

What particular event will mark the end of this world (aion = age) and the beginning of the next?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

This is the time when the man of sin will be revealed and no one will be saved from their sins after this.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I have taken some time to show you folks the context of Psalm 12 is the same as this day of the LORD judgement that is determined by God on the whole earth. God is not present until he comes to deliver these Jews who are in Jerusalem and establish his kingdom by purging the whole earth of unbelievers. The very thing that has purified these believers in this day is the words of the LORD and they are tried and purified through the heat of persecution.

I hope this is a help to you fellas.

The end of the remnant doctrine.
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

Who knew, John of Japan? I mentioned something along the lines of civility and you reminded me we were in a debate. I am in no mood to go back and mine quotes so I am just going to offer an apology to you and to publicly say I take it back and wish I had not offended you with my words. I am not here for the purpose of offending.

I am not even here to debate the KJV. I think the law of liberty should apply among Christians and if you disagree with me it is okay. We are not in the same local fellowship. The KJV is like a lion. One just needs to let him out. He can defend himself. I am explaining why I personally am a KJV only. You people always come out with the sword. Logos1560 calls it human KJV reasoning, like there is some other kind. He intends that to be derogatory and condescending and mean spirited. I think it was you in an earlier comment who claimed that KJV only Christians has done x amount of harm to the faith. I cannot remember the exact quote and how much damage, but you offered no proof of your statements.

I can't wrap my head around the attitudes of people like you who have nothing to say about paraphrases and falsely so-called translations that use the method of dynamic equivalence, like some do, and that attempt to neuter the scriptures as much as possible, making it conform to modern ideas on the sexes like the NIV does. Silence about evil is an endorsement in my view. I cannot understand why you would warn against Christians who believe word for word a translation of the scriptures like the KJV and endorse a translation that is not really a translation, that changes the words and then ask people to believe the changes. How would one compare the words with the original language manuscripts to see if the translation were true?

 

A conjectural emendation is an ADDITION to Scripture. It should NOT be in the text of any Bible version.

 

I DID read them, and disagree with them.

 

That is your interpertation.

 

A TRUE one. Remember, GOD said not to add nor subtract from His word, and a conjectural emendation is an ADDITION.

 

First, I have never read anything by Ruckman and so it is not his arguments that has brought me to my position. Second, I do not believe women theologians are approved of God and therefore I am not buying commentaries of the scriptures written by women. I will say that someone gave me a copy of a book once written by Gail Riplinger. I pitched it after a couple chapters as much for the tone as anything else.

I have come to the KJV only position because of my personal study of the words of God and what I have learned about his ways over the years. Leaving the world dependent upon Hebrew and Greek scholars and having an unending line of new and improved translations without the same words or even the same methods of translations like we have since about 2001 in America does not match any of our heavenly Father's ways that are revealed anywhere in his revelation of himself. Then, take into account that these are translations of the same manuscripts into the same language without any new source material. How can Spirit enlightened Christians fall for such tactics. Throw in the paraphrases and the dynamic equivalence editions and they are an insult to the church and to God, I believe.

I don't know why men like you are not more enraged at these practitioners of deceit than about men who believes the God who has sacrificed his Son to save us would not preserve his words in the language of the people who are willing to believe it and preach it to others all over the world.

I have never liked Peter Ruckman nor his tactics but credit his school of getting thousands of missionaries all over the world. I know many of them personally.

You make statements without offering proof above. Besides that, God's favorite mathematical term is "divide." The way to God is narrow. Few find it we are told. There is a real and person Devil. He is the adversary. He has weakened the testimony of the church through the philosophy of the new bibles without end. That does not make the KJV true but there is less unity among Christians now than before our minds were enlightened with all these new bibles to choose from.

I have other points I would like to make about your comments but I am out of time now.

 

Your own human opinions concerning the KJV would leave the English-speaking world dependent upon one exclusive group of Church of England "Hebrew and Greek scholars" in 1611 whose goal was to make a new and improved edition of the English Bible without all the same words that were in the pre-1611 English Bibles.

The makers of the KJV even borrowed many renderings from the 1582 Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament translated from an edition of the Latin Vulgate, which is one reason for many of the differences between the 1560 Geneva Bible or the 1568 Bishops' Bible and the KJV.

 

Most of the modern Bibles are worst than the AV with it's known faults. LOL.

 

Warning: this post will be long because I am dealing with things in the NT that shines light on the purification of Israel, which is the prophesy of Psa 12 and related Psalms.


God has written only 13 letters directly to gentiles. That is it. They are Romans to Philemon in the scriptures. He saved what would become one of the greatest men who ever lived, Saul of Tarsus, and commissioned him as the special apostle to the gentiles. He was not chosen until after the nation of Judah had refused the salvation of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, in Acts 7, the wayside hearers of Matt 13.

Why is this important to our discussion? It is because it really was the perfect will of God to establish his kingdom but in order for ones to enter into the kingdom, they must be born again, John 3:7. The kingdom must be established in the heart before it can be established in the physical. It is not just one or two, or a few Jews, a remnant, that must be born again, but the physical kingdom of God on earth cannot be established until every one of Israel is saved and they enter the kingdom as a collective. That is what will finally happen as Psa 12 intimates. All the rebels of Israel will be purged by the white hot fires of the great tribulation and they will be purified as a family by those fires.

Consider this, as the first command to Israel after the resurrection of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38). It came on the festival of Pentecost, 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, the feast of firstfruits. God allowed seven years for the conversion of Israel and he had ascended and was seated on the right hand of God the Father.Though the salvation of the collective was the goal, they, Israel, must come individually and on purpose in repentance and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized by an apostle in his name upon which he would give them the gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell their bodies thus forever uniting them with him. Afterward,the body is the tabernacle of the Spirit of God the soul. Israel, when they enter the kingdom would be in the image of God through Jesus Christ and the baptismal waters is an apt picture of Israel being in God. First the baptism of the body and second, receiving the Holy Ghost and salvation. Trinitarian. See here.

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable [unto you], but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no salvation without repentance towards God and repentance is an issue of the heart.The way of God is to show physical pictures of spiritual truths.

Here is how I know what I am saying here is true. It is because of the words;

Ac 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

At the end of Acts 7 it is clear that this nation through her rulers in Jerusalem has rejected Jesus Christ and his salvation and the Gospel begins to broaden farther out and God saves Saul, who becomes Paul, because the mystery form of the kingdom will now fill this age. The gentiles will be grafted into the stump of the olive tree (metaphor for religious Israel) with the remnant branches and it will be Jews and gentiles together in the body of Christ. In the next 30 years the Jews will go back into Judaism and in 70 AD, forty years after the invitation to enter into rest, they were buried in the nations of the world and time stopped for Israel, and the church of Jesus Christ took on a gentile character, according to the typology of the 8 gentile women who married Jewish men in the OT, beginning with Rebekah/Isaac in Ge 24, a type of this very truth. The church of Jesus Christ is his body and his bride is a gentile.
Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Israel is like anyone born of the flesh. He must be born again. Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is to be born again, born of God, born from above. This is the true context of John 3. Jesus is speaking about Israel primarily in that chapter.

Continued

 

Continued:

Israel as a nation will be reborn (Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?)

Since God has promised to purge Israel of all her rebels in so many bible references I have already mentioned (there are many more I have not mentioned) and since Israel must be born again, every one of them, which means both individually and collectively, He will use the man of sin and his kingdom to do the job while he preserves the remnant who are saved from him that puffeth at them and he will do it during the 3.5 years he calls the time of Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation, the day of the LORD and while he is using the man who digs the ditch, he will cause that man to fall into it. There are 7 judgments in the revelation which will eliminate all rebels from the earth and God will begin his bright shining day, which is 1000 years long, with a born again citizenship and a reign of righteousness.

Israel is the silver and is purified by these 7 judgments of Revelation.

I must demonstrate to you that God sees Israel as a collective and she must be saved as a collective. Understand this; the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to no one but Israel for the first 7 years, which is Acts 1 through Acts 7, and the only preachers were the apostles and prophets. They were not saved nationally, but only a small number. These were called later by Paul, the remnant according to the election of grace. Enter this prophetic parable here:

Lk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Probation for 40 years. AD 30 to AD 70.

Consider this;


Ro 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The children of Abraham cannot enter the kingdom.The firstborn, such as Ismael,and Esau, who are types of the firstborn after the flesh, cannot enter God's kingdom in this metaphor. Only children of God can enter the kingdom. He is the one who has a second birth. Israel, according to Ex 4 was the firstborn. Israel cannot be accepted by God as the son of Abraham. Israel can only be accepted by God as his son. This requires a new birth and God is giving all kinds of physical examples here of this spiritual truth.

This is what Psalm 12 is about, I believe.

Back to Paul:

As the apostle to the gentiles he said the following;

Ro 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,1

Paul, in his 13 letters of instruction to us gentiles has never told us to continually translate what he writes over and over with different words in every translation and in the same language, abbreviating in some of them and paraphrasing others, and adjusting the morals of the culture in others. I frankly would be afraid to do such a thing, but if you are comfortable backing all that translating, then I suppose you have thought it through and think it is the best thing to do.

I just wanted to talk about Psa 12 from my KJV for a while. If you have read this entire post it should help you.