37818
Well-Known Member
I am pro AV aka KJV. I know no good reason to read any KKVO books. While that may not mean there isn't any, I know no reason for me.
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Testing the "Seven Times Purified Theory"
- Thread starter John of Japan
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I ordered and read three of Bednar's books. There is a great deal of overlap in his three books with similar contents.
I do not agree with your opinion of Bednar's book Evidence of the Divine Hand on True Scripture. It does not present a positive, clear, consistent, sound, true, scriptural case for a modern KJV-only view. In much of it, he tries to justify renderings found in the KJV, but he fails to prove that the KJV is perfect. I would not consider it to be the best KJV-only book.
Lawrence Bednar referred to “KJV language up-dating, up to the final 1769 edition” (Evidence of the Divine Hand, p. 72; see also p. 276). Lawrence Bednar claimed that “the finalized KJB text is inerrant” and that “inerrancy will extent to the final authorized 1769 KJB edition” (Case, p. 102).
Bednar seems to be uninformed and misinformed about editions of the KJV as he believes assertions that are not true. The 1769 Oxford edition of the KJV was not the final edition of the KJV, and it was not inerrant. There were actual errors in the 1769 Oxford edition of the KJV. Some scholars indicate that there were over 100 errors in that 1769 edition. Present post-1900 KJV editions are not identical to the 1769 Oxford edition (except for one facsimile reprint of the 1769 Oxford in 2017).
One new error in the 1769 Oxford edition at Exodus 6:21 [the name of the wrong person Zithri taken from the last word of Exodus 6:22] remained in most Oxford and Cambridge editions for over 100 years until the 1873 Cambridge edition by Scrivener corrected it.
Yeah, you're right. I phrased that wrongly.
The third Japanese Bible in my list is the 文語訳聖書, Bungoyaku Seisho, the Classical Japanese Bible (CJB). It was an improvement in semantics and syntax, but still in the very difficult classical Japanese. Also, it took the Japanese Bible even further from the received texts, since it used an early Nestle's for the NT source text.
There are actually some CJB Only Japanese pastors, a very few. A missionary friend of mine had one in to preach, and told him not to touch the Japanese Bible issue, but he did anyways. Ironically, my friend was KJVO on furlough, but you can't be that in Japan, or you have no Bible to preach and evangelize from.
A new missionary once told another missionary friend of mine that the CJB was the "Japanese KJV." However, when my friend pointed out the critical text omissions, the new missionary had a huge problem. So he called his pastor back in the US and asked what to do. The pastor said, "You put a KJV next to the Japanese Bible on the pulpit, and preach with your hand on the KJV." True story. As old Jerry Clower used to say, "If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'!"
There are actually some CJB Only Japanese pastors, a very few. A missionary friend of mine had one in to preach, and told him not to touch the Japanese Bible issue, but he did anyways. Ironically, my friend was KJVO on furlough, but you can't be that in Japan, or you have no Bible to preach and evangelize from.
A new missionary once told another missionary friend of mine that the CJB was the "Japanese KJV." However, when my friend pointed out the critical text omissions, the new missionary had a huge problem. So he called his pastor back in the US and asked what to do. The pastor said, "You put a KJV next to the Japanese Bible on the pulpit, and preach with your hand on the KJV." True story. As old Jerry Clower used to say, "If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'!"
The "7 times purified" sub-doctrine is as false as the rest of the KJVO myth. The thing that's 7 times purified is the silver. That was the standard used for the silver of the tabernacle/temple instruments. And even by today's standards, that was pretty pure silver.
The truth is still that regardless if one teaches form a translation based off the Tr/MT or CT, its still same Holy Spirit that uses that word of the lord to save lost sinners with!
Sopreferred, how about the Nkjv?
37818
Well-Known Member
It has its unique issues. Currently it is a primary modern translation I would suggest.
So does the KJV.
The next Japanese version on my list, #4, is the 永井訳新約聖書, Nagaiyaku NT. This was a one man version translated by Japanese pastor Nagai Naoji (with Nagai being the family name). It was done from the Stephanus TR, published in 1928, so it is definitely a "purification," right?
Unfortunately, it was done in Classical Japanese like the ones already mentioned. However, it was quite well done, and even was even reprinted one time in about the late 1990s, I think it was. (I'd have to check.) I have one of the original printing and one of the reprint. However, nowadays you'd have to sell your house to find one.
Also, it still had the ん as the potential/subjunctive for the Greek future tense. Here is what I wrote about that issue in my pamphlet on the history of the Japanese Bible (see attachment):
"This form was thought by early missionaries and linguists to be a normal future tense, which is no doubt why it was used for the Greek future tense. In fact, missionary Samuel Brown is said to have rushed out one day, 'like Archimedes, to inform Hepburn that he had at last discovered the future tense' (Japan in Review, ed. by Arthur Reynolds, p. 37). However, as a classical grammarian has pointed out, 'MU is usually described as forming a future tense, but it is more accurate to say that it denotes probability" (George Sansom, An Historical Grammar of Japanese, p. 187). A Japanese grammar of the classical language gives a similar explanation' (Hiroo Nakano and Kikuichi Nakamura, Classical Grammar from the Basics, p. 52-53). Thus, it was not until the Shinkai Yaku Bible that Japanese believers were given a sure promise from the Word of God of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ!" (John R. Himes, By Every Word of God, pp. 6-7).
Unfortunately, it was done in Classical Japanese like the ones already mentioned. However, it was quite well done, and even was even reprinted one time in about the late 1990s, I think it was. (I'd have to check.) I have one of the original printing and one of the reprint. However, nowadays you'd have to sell your house to find one.
Also, it still had the ん as the potential/subjunctive for the Greek future tense. Here is what I wrote about that issue in my pamphlet on the history of the Japanese Bible (see attachment):
"This form was thought by early missionaries and linguists to be a normal future tense, which is no doubt why it was used for the Greek future tense. In fact, missionary Samuel Brown is said to have rushed out one day, 'like Archimedes, to inform Hepburn that he had at last discovered the future tense' (Japan in Review, ed. by Arthur Reynolds, p. 37). However, as a classical grammarian has pointed out, 'MU is usually described as forming a future tense, but it is more accurate to say that it denotes probability" (George Sansom, An Historical Grammar of Japanese, p. 187). A Japanese grammar of the classical language gives a similar explanation' (Hiroo Nakano and Kikuichi Nakamura, Classical Grammar from the Basics, p. 52-53). Thus, it was not until the Shinkai Yaku Bible that Japanese believers were given a sure promise from the Word of God of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ!" (John R. Himes, By Every Word of God, pp. 6-7).
Then we have listed the 口語訳聖書, meaning the "Colloquial Translation Bible."
It was a revision of the Classical Bible into modern colloquial Japanese. That's good.
It was not done from the Received Text of the NT. That's bad.
It was done in clear, good Japanese. That's good.
It was mainly done by missionaries so there are quite a few semantic errors. That's bad.
The grammar was pretty good. That's good.
The error of using a potential verb for the Greek future was perpetuated. That's bad.
It was used by a broad spectrum of churches. That's good.
It was influenced by the liberal RSV. That's bad.
So, was it a purification? Well, it did bring the Japanese Bible into modern times.
It was a revision of the Classical Bible into modern colloquial Japanese. That's good.
It was not done from the Received Text of the NT. That's bad.
It was done in clear, good Japanese. That's good.
It was mainly done by missionaries so there are quite a few semantic errors. That's bad.
The grammar was pretty good. That's good.
The error of using a potential verb for the Greek future was perpetuated. That's bad.
It was used by a broad spectrum of churches. That's good.
It was influenced by the liberal RSV. That's bad.
So, was it a purification? Well, it did bring the Japanese Bible into modern times.
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The sixth Japanese translation of our "purified seven times" is the 新改訳聖書, Shinkaiyakuseisho (SKY). This translation was done supported by the Lockman Foundation, and with the translation principles of the NASB. Some people would call it the Japanese edition of the NASB, but it is of course a completely new translation, because it is impossible to have an NASB in Japanese.
At a church in Texas many years ago, while we were on furlough from Japan, a believer came up to me and asked, "Is there a King James Version in Japanese?" I said, "No, there can't be." He said, "Why not?" I answered, "Because the KJV is an English Bible, and they speak Japanese over there." He said, "Oh," seemed satisfied, and walked off. Think about it. How can two languages have the same translation? This man saw the point. There is no Japanese KJV, nor can there be. It is impossible.
Anyway, back to the subject. The NT of the Shinkaiyaku was originally done from the Nestle's 24th edition of the Greek NT. There have been two revisions, "purifications" if you will, and I don't know what their text has been for those.
Hmm. Two revisions. Does that take it out of the "purified seven times" theory? Nah. After all, the KJV has been revised, yet it is still the culmination of the seven purified Bibles in the minds of many.
One thing the SKY has done right is that rather than the Japanese potential verbs, they translated the Greek future with a Japanese present (there is no Japanese future tense), which is correct. The Greek future is used for actions believed to be sure of happening. There are several ways to show doubt in Japanese: with the verb desho (でしょう, or だろう in the plain level of honorifics). You can also use かも知れない, a phrase meaning "may." Anyway, in the SKY, Jesus is certainly coming back just as He went--into the clouds (Acts 1:11).
So, the SKY is definitely an improvement, and almost all Japanese pastors, conservative missionaries, and Japanese churches use it.
At a church in Texas many years ago, while we were on furlough from Japan, a believer came up to me and asked, "Is there a King James Version in Japanese?" I said, "No, there can't be." He said, "Why not?" I answered, "Because the KJV is an English Bible, and they speak Japanese over there." He said, "Oh," seemed satisfied, and walked off. Think about it. How can two languages have the same translation? This man saw the point. There is no Japanese KJV, nor can there be. It is impossible.
Anyway, back to the subject. The NT of the Shinkaiyaku was originally done from the Nestle's 24th edition of the Greek NT. There have been two revisions, "purifications" if you will, and I don't know what their text has been for those.
Hmm. Two revisions. Does that take it out of the "purified seven times" theory? Nah. After all, the KJV has been revised, yet it is still the culmination of the seven purified Bibles in the minds of many.
One thing the SKY has done right is that rather than the Japanese potential verbs, they translated the Greek future with a Japanese present (there is no Japanese future tense), which is correct. The Greek future is used for actions believed to be sure of happening. There are several ways to show doubt in Japanese: with the verb desho (でしょう, or だろう in the plain level of honorifics). You can also use かも知れない, a phrase meaning "may." Anyway, in the SKY, Jesus is certainly coming back just as He went--into the clouds (Acts 1:11).
So, the SKY is definitely an improvement, and almost all Japanese pastors, conservative missionaries, and Japanese churches use it.
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At last we come to the seventh, the "purified" Japanese Bible, the ライフライン聖書, or Lifeline Bible. The NT is the first ever that was translated into Japanese from the Scrivener TR Greek NT. So this absolutely has to be the Japanese Bible of the STPT, right? It is now at the printer's and will be printed very soon. Except that the final editor has been going through Mark and has found several mistakes. But an STPT Japanese NT wouldn't have mistakes in it, would it? Shouldn't it somehow be perfect? And if so, how does that happen?
Anyway, full disclosure: I am the lead translator. We are now working on the OT. If you remember my co-translator, Uncle Miya, he helped on Psalm 1-40. I continue to work on the Psalms and also Proverbs, doing a couple of verses a day. Our final editor is working on Genesis. Uncle Miya has gone on to Heaven, so I'll be contacting my protege, Katsuyuki, to help. I turned 70 in December, so given that there are 23,145 verses in the OT, I need to translate six verses a day to finish the job by the time I am 80.
But my translation efforts are purified, aren't they, according to the STPT, right? I mean, there were six consequential translations before the Lifeline, so since this is the 7th God will purify it. Only how does that happen? How come our work still has errors in it? Someone please help!!
Anyway, full disclosure: I am the lead translator. We are now working on the OT. If you remember my co-translator, Uncle Miya, he helped on Psalm 1-40. I continue to work on the Psalms and also Proverbs, doing a couple of verses a day. Our final editor is working on Genesis. Uncle Miya has gone on to Heaven, so I'll be contacting my protege, Katsuyuki, to help. I turned 70 in December, so given that there are 23,145 verses in the OT, I need to translate six verses a day to finish the job by the time I am 80.
But my translation efforts are purified, aren't they, according to the STPT, right? I mean, there were six consequential translations before the Lifeline, so since this is the 7th God will purify it. Only how does that happen? How come our work still has errors in it? Someone please help!!
The 7x purified theory is just stupid. It breaks every rule of Biblical interpretation
Interestingly enough, the KJVO book I am reading now quotes from Purified Seven Times: The Miracle of the English Bible, by Bill Bradley, then says, "I'm not into numerology, but how 'coincidental' and fascinating to consider that the Bible declares in Psalm 12:6, 'The words of the Lord are pure words...purified seven times'" (Our Blessed Book, by Caleb Garraway; emphasis added).
The first translation on my list of seven is the one man NT of Nathan Brown (ブラウン新約聖書), the second Baptist missionary to Japan. (Jonathan Goble was the first, and they planted the first Japanese Baptist Church together.) This was the very first published translation of the NT in Japanese, though Karl Gutzlaff had published a poorly done Gospel of John in Singapore in 1937, done with some marooned Japanese sailors.
However, though Brown's NT was basically a good translation, it was done in the colloquial Japanese of the day, though all written documents of the day were done in the classical Japanese. Also, Brown's version was done with no kanji (Chinese characters), making it hard to read. A further issue was that it was not done from the KJV or the TR (Gasp!), but Brown did his own textual criticism. The cover says, "from the oldest existing Greek manuscripts." Well, obviously it needed to be purified. It was later revised using the kanji, but still done with Brown's textual criticism, I believe.
That brings up the question, how do you purify a Bible? Isn't God's Word pure from the get go? Ps. 119:140, "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it." Prov. 30:5, "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."
Anyone want to help out and answer this for me?
It seems rather silly to me to believe the Psalm 12 is addressing the purification of the entire bible since there is a future Psa 13 as well as everything that follows after it, that is yet to be written.
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
David is using a metaphor here. He is not saying the words have been tried in a furnace of earth, purified like silver seven times. He is not prophesying that they will be tried in the furnace of earth like silver. He is merely saying the words of the LORD ARE pure, and then he tells how pure they are. "Are" is present tense and therefore these verses are dealing with the context that has already been established in the previous verses. The prophecy he is dealing with here concerns a man who is to come whose actions are described in the Psalm and the LORD's action of "arising," a key word in this chapter, in response to him and his wicked work. It is the surety of the words that is in view and not necessarily the preservation of them.
Ps 3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
Ps 7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.
Ps 9:19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
Ps 10:12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
Ps 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
A theme is developed in the Psalms and Psa 12 is a continuation of the theme. David is a prophet and he is giving a prophecy concerning a man who is coming to oppress his people Israel in the future. There is more prophesy in the Psalms maybe than the prophets, at least end times prophecy.
Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
The LORD'S arising is always future until the Revelation.
Ac 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Look at Psalm 12 as an end times prophesy that advances the theme of the LORD arising in his glorious appearing to finally deal with wicked men. I think that is how it should be viewed.
At last we come to the seventh, the "purified" Japanese Bible, the ライフライン聖書, or Lifeline Bible. The NT is the first ever that was translated into Japanese from the Scrivener TR Greek NT. So this absolutely has to be the Japanese Bible of the STPT, right? It is now at the printer's and will be printed very soon. Except that the final editor has been going through Mark and has found several mistakes. But an STPT Japanese NT wouldn't have mistakes in it, would it? Shouldn't it somehow be perfect? And if so, how does that happen?
Anyway, full disclosure: I am the lead translator. We are now working on the OT. If you remember my co-translator, Uncle Miya, he helped on Psalm 1-40. I continue to work on the Psalms and also Proverbs, doing a couple of verses a day. Our final editor is working on Genesis. Uncle Miya has gone on to Heaven, so I'll be contacting my protege, Katsuyuki, to help. I turned 70 in December, so given that there are 23,145 verses in the OT, I need to translate six verses a day to finish the job by the time I am 80.
But my translation efforts are purified, aren't they, according to the STPT, right? I mean, there were six consequential translations before the Lifeline, so since this is the 7th God will purify it. Only how does that happen? How come our work still has errors in it? Someone please help!!
Thirteen psalms mentions Jesus arising to come to the rescue of the small remnant of Israel who are left and are about to perish under the destroying armies of the heathen. All are prayers for him to arise and come, except for two. The number 5 is the number for grace and in Psalm 12 is the 5th time the word appears. "Now I will arise" says God in verse 5. The number 12 is the number God uses for his perfect government which he establishes on earth when he arises. He arises from his Father's right hand where he has been seated for the last 2000 years. Number 7 is the number for complete things and the words of this generation are preserved forever and so the promise that he will arise and take care of business is sure. If someone thinks it is Israel that is being preserved, that is okay too, because both his promise and his people will be preserved and this promise will surely come to pass.
The number 13 is associated with gentiles and transgressiors. Remember, Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, he 13th apostle wrote 13 letters to the gentiles, who are transgressors. Many more instances can be cited. But, if you think these are mere coincidences and agree with none of the numbers, my point is that arguing that Ps 12:7 is speaking about the scriptures is a distraction. I am KJV only in my approach to the scriptures and to God and I think Psalm 12 has nothing to do with the preservation of all the words of God.
The theme continues after the 12th psalm.
Ps 17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
Ps 44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
Ps 44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies’ sake.
Ps 68:1 « To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David. » Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
Ps 74:22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.
Ps 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Ps 102:13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
Ps 132:8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.
Just for fun, here are the computer generated cross references for Psa 12:7. See what God commonly preserves.
Ps 16:1 « Michtam of David. » Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.
Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Ps 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.
Ps 121:8 The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.
Ps 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
De 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints [are] in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; [every one] shall receive of thy words.
1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
Isa 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest [any] hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
Ps 10:18 To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.
Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Very good. I agree--it's metaphorical. It is certainly not meant to teach that the seven iterations of the KJV (whichever one of the variant theories one believes) prove that it, an English Bible, is perfect.
I like this idea of a theme, but I'm not sure it's true. I don't see a specific connection between these Psalms when one looks at the statements of circumstances before each Psalm.
We agree.
My whole point of the thread is to question the legitimacy of using Ps. 12:6-7 to refer to the English Bible. (I do believe that v. 6 can be used to teach preservation of the Word of God--just not the English Bible.) If one takes the passage to be referring to a Bible translation, then why not the Japanese Bible? Or the Chinese, or the Fulfulde or any other language?
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Good job. Here is my similar post from #8 of my previous thread, "A Bible Doctrine of Preservation."
Through His providence, God preserves many things in His creation:
A. The saints--"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off" (Ps. 37:28). "He that keepeth thee will not slumber" (Ps. 121:3b). He will preserve:
1. their lives (Gen. 45:5, Deut. 6:24, Ps. 30:3, 33:19-20)
2. them from trouble and evil (1 Chron. 4:10, Ps. 32:7, 121:7, John 17:15, 2 Thess. 3:3)
3. them from evil men (Ps. 31:20, 41:2, 97:10, 140:1, 141:9)
4. their path (Gen. 28:15-22, Ex. 23:20, Josh. 24:17, 2 Sam. 8:6, Ps. 91:10, 121:8, Prov. 2:8)
5. the fatherless and widows and foreigners (Jer. 49:11, Ps. 146:9)
6. their spirit, soul and body for Heaven--eternal security (John 17:11-12, 1 Thess. 5:23, 2 Tim. 1:12, 1 Peter 1:5, Jude 1)
7. them from sin, according to their prayers (1 Sam. 25:39, Ps. 19:13, 141:3, Jude 24)
8. them from Satan (John 17:15)
9. them from temptation (1 Cor. 10:13, Rev. 3:10)
B. Israel (Josh. 24:17, Jer. 31:10)
C. Jerusalem (Is. 31:5)
D. The animal kingdom (Ps. 36:6, Matt. 10:29)
E. His ordained governments (2 Chron. 6:16, Col. 1:16-17, Rom. 13:1)
F. His own secrets (Matt. 13:35, Rom. 16:25)
G. The heavens and the earth (2 Peter 3:7)
H. His own Word, the Bible (Ps. 12:6, etc.)
He didn't read his KJV too closely. He missed that little word "as", which shows Dave was COMPARING God's words to 7-times-purified silver. In those days, silver & other molten metals was purified by skimming the surface of the melt with a wooden hoe-like tool, as the dross & slag always rose to the top. Doing that 7 times would produce a quite-pure silver, even by today's standards. This was the standard of the silver used to make the Tabernacle/temple instruments. It was the purest metal then known to man.
Dave assumed that silver was absolutely pure, so he compared God's words to it.
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